Lee Pearson Podcast Extra March 2012
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Liz Carr 

rob	You're listening to a download from the BBC. This is an Ouch Talk Show podcast extra where we're talking to Lee Pearson, equestrian Paralympian. 	
liz	Moving on to our guest, mobility impaired athlete, Lee Pearson, has been winning gold in dressage in Paralympic level since the year 2000. He currently has nine to his credit and is expected to raise that total during London 2012. 	
rob	And he's with us now down the line from Stoke. Hello Lee. 	
lee	Hello guys. 	
rob	I want to find out how your preparations are going for the Paralympics but we surely can't do that without asking how your back is because I know you had a terrible accident last summer, can you tell us about that? 	
lee	I did. My second in command horse had an operation and he was convalescing so he was on restricted exercise of which he took a dispute to and decided to turn into an American rodeo horse in full flat out gallop. I hit the deck and I was very, very winded and sick and I was ambulanced to the hospital, x-rayed and be told that I was okay go home with painkillers. A couple of weeks later I asked for an MRI scan via the World Class Performance Programme, and I'd broken my back in four places, three cracked vertebrae and a fourth crushed vertebrae.	
rob	Not helped at all by your follow-up accident which we've now taken taken to calling Chickengate in the studio. 	
lee	Yes. So falling off a bronco-ing horse and breaking your back was quite impressive. Tripping over a chicken a few months later and cracking a rib wasn't quite as impressive. 	
rob	In case you didn't hear that listeners, Lee Pearson tripped over a chicken. How do you do that?	
lee	Because I was in London at a function and I got back late one night. 	
liz	A chicken in London?	
lee	No, no, no the chicken was in Staffordshire... 	
rob	This wasn't a takeaway dead deep fried chicken, this one was alive and well at the time?	
lee	Well it was at the time, Mr Fox has since had dinner unfortunately. 	
liz	Apologies to all the vegetarians listening. 	
LEE	Yeah I don't think you can get a vegetarian chicken can you? Anyway she had not put herself to bed so I picked her up and put her to bed and I don't know what happened next but the chicken was in the air, my crutches were in the air, I was in the air and I landed on a roll of Avery wire and cracked a rib. 	
LIZ	And this is all on top your other disabilities of course? 	
Lee	Oh yeah. I joke that I was able-bodied when I started I'm sure. 	
rob	It's extraordinary and I don't know why I'm laughing I'm so sorry.	
lee	No, no, no my life makes me laugh and it was very, very surreal, but I was getting all the accidents out of the way last year so I can have a clear run this year, that was the plan.  	
liz	Good. So talking about this year who's going to be your biggest rivals at the London games?	
lee	Well I think it depends on who gets selected both in this country, one of my biggest rivals is one of my best friends also Ricky Balshaw from Telford in Shropshire. But Ricky's really unlucky and usually picks horses that go lame on him so he's currently horseless. But internationally probably as an individual it's a Danish rider called Stinna Kaastrup, she's in her late teens and she's an absolutely gorgeous person, blond hair and she has no legs at all but she can ride a horse phenomenally well, and she's just changed her horse to a much improved horse. So I've not competed against her before so I'm praying that the judges still like me and what we produce more than Stinna. And then Great Britain's won the team gold since 1996 at every major championship - that's European, World and Paralympic but the other European countries are chasing our tails, excuse the pun. Germany could take our team gold and Denmark, Norway, Belgium very, very strong countries within Europe. 	
liz	So, Tony, Team GB shaping generally for gold do you think? 	
tony	Well I was going to ask Lee I mean obviously you know we're very much para dressage we are very good at para dressage, but as Lee's just outlining there the standard is really coming up and as Lee it's going to be very competitive come the Paralympics isn't it?	
Lee	The standard of horses now is getting more expensive and if other countries have gained funding and managed to buy quality horses and then obviously ride them very well as well then that is upping the game a lot. So, for example, I mean America or South Africa they could just arrive with stunning horses that are very highly trained and wipe the board. But Great Britain we do have that inner confidence that we've been so successful. I think one of the most successful British teams ever in the world actually, not just British, one of the most successful teams in the whole of the world and we just have to preserve that confidence going into the arena. 	
tony	Lee, tell us about your horse because obviously that has a real special relationship when you were talking about it a bit earlier on when it went a little bit whoopsy daisy shall we say last year.	
rob	So you didn't sever your relationship with the horse when it went feral? You've forgiven him?	
lee	Actually I have eight horses and that was my second in command, Zeon, who I really, really like. Now the shock factor is my top horse and my current horse is called Gentleman and we don't like each other. But he comes up with the goods in the arena, but to train he is my most demoralising horse; he's sensitive, he's ignorant, he's opinionated, he's violent. 	
rob	I'm loving the anthropomorphism it's incredible. It sounds like your describing I don't know like... 	
liz	A scorned lover. 	
rob	... a bad marriage. 	
lee	Yeah, no having a relationship with your horse, a riding relationship, is very much like a marriage. And you have very good times but you have very bad times. I mean I got on him today, I've been squad training down at Stow on the Wold, and he just decided to fly backwards down the yard of stables and refused to even go forwards and was trying to kill daddy. But then he went in the arena and he actually trained quite well. So yeah we... 	
rob	Isn't that strange? Is there such a thing as a horse psychologist?	
lee	Well I mean as a trainer you have to evaluate the situation and Beijing was not an easy ride for me at all. He refused to do dressage in the training and the warming up and he was trying to ditch me and get me on the floor, but then he went into the arena and he came up with the goods. But there were areas in the test that I could show you on a video where he was just thinking about going off on one and I managed to kind of nurture him around the arena in those particular moments. So we take nothing for granted. You guys know in media never work with children and animals. I dodge the children section but...	
tony	And Lee how do you do that because I know as you say Gentleman, you were riding Gentleman in Beijing, how do you actually just know... is it a second, sixth sense that you know he's going to... do you need to anticipate that or not?	
Lee	Well it's all about feel and the horsemanship and training and skill and lots of things. But feel is the most important thing. So when I'm on top I can feel through my body and mainly my seat, my bum, how he's feeling, when he feels tense if a muscle's not working, if a joint's not working, if I get any tension in the neck, if I get any tension in a limb or his leg I feel everything. Because we ride together more of less daily you build up this partnership that I start to even think movements and he can offer them, or he can even anticipate movements. So you have such a bond. If there's listeners that maybe have dogs, for example, I mean somebody could train their own dog to sit, lie down, heel and whatnot but then someone else comes along and the dog might still sit and lie down but it wouldn't do it with the same enthusiasm and understanding as the person that trained the dog. And it's a bit like that with dressage, people that can ride could try and ride our horses but because we've built up this relationship, be it good or bad, we understand each other in a very finite detail. 	
liz	Dressage is done to music is that right? 	
Lee	One class is. There's two classes; a team test and a championship test that are set dressage tests where each competitor does the same movements and it is judged accordingly. But then we have a freestyle to music and we can choose our own music and it has to go with the tempo and the rhythm of the horse. And my horse Gentleman is quite big and impressive and a bit of a poser. 	
tony	That's two of you then. 	
lee	I knew, Tony, you wouldn't let me down with that. And so we have quite bolshie 'in your face' music and we use a lot of power and expression to try the blow the judges away and get them to give us high scores. 	
liz	Like what, what kind of songs?	
lee	I knew you were going to ask me that. My iPod is terrible it's got Tiny Turner in and Now 5 on it and that's about it. 	
rob	Now 5.	
lee	Now 5 and I think we're on about Now 80 aren't we. So I had a hard time for the World Championships in 2007 so we entered to Superman. Then we - God what was the second lot of music - it was something like Invincible, I can't really remember. Then we had Queen We Are the Champions which is quite arrogant before you've actually won the test you're saying we are the champions. 	
liz	Is this like subliminal for the judges?	
lee	Yeah, yeah. 	
rob	Or for the horse.	
lee	And then we exited in Fame. So yeah you can tell little stories with the music as well. 	
rob	This is bombastic. This is going to give any horse an inflated ego isn't it absolutely. 	
lee	Yeah that's the plan. 	
rob	So I know you've said in the past that you think the Paralympics should be held before the Olympics.	
lee	Not permanently, there's been a bit of misunderstanding there. I think they should be rotated and that would be fairer I think on both sports. Because I think the Paralympics occasionally are seen as an after sport and a lesser sport and a sister games to the Olympics. And it isn't. The Paralympics is the Paralympics in its own right and why should it always go after the Olympics, but why should it always go before, they should just rotate them. And the times when the Paralympics goes first surely it's easier on the organisers to be running an Olympic type event with less competitors and less audience. So the volunteers could get used to the situation and the running of big championships. 	
liz	What about running them both at the same time? 	
lee	I think logistically that can't happen. I mean the Olympic Village is already huge, the timings are already jam packed and for equestrian obviously we'd need more stables and even more accommodation. I used to feel that that's what I wanted to get them running parallel, but I'm proud of the Paralympics being the Paralympics, I'm not saying I wouldn't try to do the Olympics in the future, but I'm proud to be a Paralympian and I think the games have an extra dimension that the Olympics doesn't have and why should we share that?	
rob	I know some disabled people are quite cagey and political about discussing what exactly is wrong with them, but not you. I mean as a Paralympic sportsman do you think it's important to explain your condition and your limitations fully or not? 	
lee	Did you mean my blond genetics, my blond hair genetics or did you actually mean my disability?	
rob	That's exactly what I meant, Lee. 	
lee	Yeah. No I think it's all about education. Growing up I led actually a very able-bodied kind of life equivalent and I didn't have any disabled friends and I was quite ignorant to disability. And when I started competing I know that I became a more all round nicer, more accepting kind of guy. So if it's done that for me surely it can help able-bodied people more with acceptance just to educate people. I think the human nature is curious, curious both in listening to like this podcast, but also curious when you see disabled people walking down the streets. But there's ways and degrees of everything. So if someone was staring at you ignorantly or asking a stupid question then they'd get a stupid answer or a glare back again. But if people are genuinely interested and it's put across in the right manner then education's surely the best way to go. 	
liz	But do you think specific details of the athletes disability should they be shouted over the tannoy during the competition? 	
lee	Yeah I think that's totally acceptable. But I was approached twice last week to ask if I'd do semi-nude photography sessions and I'm like, "You're having a laugh. I don't think you're going to pay me enough and I don't particularly want all my negative areas of my body being shown." But I'm not... I think like I said Paralympics has an extra dimension and dressage can be perceived or sometimes not the most exciting of sports so say to people yeah this is my disability and I think you should also, within the timescale that the commentator's got, explain how it affects you and the struggles that you have in life and the areas that it's a positive and within the sport. 	
tony	Lee is that what they call sexing the sport up? 	
lee	Sexing the sport up - yeah possibly yeah, if it's a good marketing tool why not? No-one's offended and the athlete's agreed to the statements that are being said. If an athlete doesn't agree to anything then the commentator doesn't explain anything about them but I think it would be brilliant to say, "This is Lee and this is his disability and this is how it affects him" and then watch him do the sport. 	
rob	But Tony the man who knows everybody in disability sport, Lee's obviously happy with this but how do you think other athletes would react if they were told they had to reveal exactly what was wrong with them?	
tony	I mean it's a really good debate because I think with some sports you couldn't see. And I think with something like equestrian where you're trying to explain exactly what dressage is, what is equestrian, I think you can understand why you'd want to do it. Not every athlete's going to want to do that because a lot of athletes will say, "This is my sport. I want to swim 50 metres that's all you need to know." But I think there's a lot of education to do around the Paralympics and I think a number of people have actually said, "No we do need to explain" because I think for a lot of people coming to the Paralympics for the first time there is that question of what is the disability and how does that relate to the sport etc. So I think it's a good debate and Lee's very good at explaining it all but not everybody is. 	
rob	And so, Lee, can you make a living out of it or do you still have to claim benefits? Can Paralympians in your field actually survive financially? 	
lee	I'm surviving. I've just bought my own farm. I drive a white blingy Range Rover. 	
rob	That's not surviving...	
liz	I'm guessing you're not on benefits?	
lee	And I'm not on benefits, no. 	
rob	Unless you're a very good fraudster. 	
lee	I know that wasn't meant in a patronising way but I mean... and I know Paralympics has got to catch up on a marketing angle versus Olympians but I don't take work on now for a couple of hundreds of pounds because literally as the old saying says I wouldn't get out of bed for that anymore. I've got horses to ride and I can earn that within the equestrian world. But I do a lot of speeches for companies now. And I have top sponsors wanting to take me onboard, and I think it comes back to the British media have helped to publicise the Paralympians to make people realise that we are a great marketing asset and we are out there doing sport. Once again even when I'm doing a business talk I have one more asset up my sleeve to discuss about my disability from birth and in sport that an Olympian has. So in one way people get more for their money employing and supporting a Paralympian than an Olympian. 	
rob	But honestly how many Paralympians are at your level of affluence through their sport?	
lee	I have no idea. 	
rob	I mean would it be literally are you a part of a tiny elite?	
tony	I was going to say, Rob, I suspect there's probably only a certain number. I mean I think if you look at most of the Paralympic sports probably only one or two in each of those sports...	
lee	But Tony it has to start somewhere...	
tony	Absolutely Lee.	
lee	... do you know what I mean? And it's like success breeds success within the sport and within education. And also from a marketing angle sure its got to start with a few guys. 	
tony	Yeah I'm sure that's the case. I think if you look at it, if you say there's 20 Paralympic sports I would say there's probably no more than 15 or 16 Paralympic athletes maximum that are actually making a bit of real money. Now that's probably four years ago; two years ago there would have been only four so I think, as Lee says, it's moved very much in the right direction. 	
rob	And very quickly as well.	
tony	And very quickly. But it's moved and with people like Lee who are very articulate speakers, come across very well and are good at their sport and I think what we've seen in the last year is that sort of the blue chip companies have absolutely started realising the importance. And as Lee says they're getting great value for money and with some really interesting stories and with success at the top of it. 	
Lee	I don't think I speak particularly well. I don't think many people from near Stoke on Trent speak particularly well, but I'm quite determined and I changed my angle a few years ago. We used to come from the angle of like, "I'm a Paralympian and I'm really struggling can you help me?" And it was very difficult to get support coming from that angle. The moment I changed my angle to actually, "I'm really successful and I have a great team behind me of staff and supporters and we intend to win more medals, do you want to be part of that success" the total ethos changed towards companies interested in you because actually people genuinely would prefer to be associated with success than...	
rob	A begging bowl. 	
lee	... helping a charity case. 	
tony	Lee, going back to the equestrian obviously selection is not yet rubber stamped tell us the process, the plan over the next couple of months.	
lee	I'm doing qualifiers at the moment that qualify me for the winter championships, we have those in March. And then I'm also doing qualifiers for the summer championships which are down at Hickstead in June. I have to do an international which for me will probably be Hartpury in Gloucestershire in this country, and those are all basically part of selection. And then our selectors will get together see what scores are on the boards and who's riding really well, who's healthy, which horses are sound and which riders they're going to take to gain individual medals but, more importantly, how do we retain the team gold and which riders they'll put together to gain that. 	
tony	And there's only five riders in total that can be selected is that correct?	
lee	Yeah, which is quite strange, because we've always had about seven riders before, because of previous successes, and looking after severely disabled riders that we have, gained us extra places but not for London. And we have probably registered about 250 at least disabled riders in this country and they're all fighting for those five places. So nothing is certainly taken for granted. 	
liz	And, Lee, after hopeful success, well not even hopeful - certain success.	
lee	No, no, no don't put me under that pressure. 	
rob	Too late. 	
liz	In London 2012 what's next for you? Would it be going for the Olympics do you think? 	
lee	Well, to be honest, financially the Olympics is a lot more expensive than the Paralympics in terms of acquiring horse power. You are talking in the millions for an Olympic level horse and the Olympics only has three places. So if you can imagine every Grand Prix rider in this country is fighting for those places - that is very, very, very competitive. All I can say is I have the ability to ride at Grand Prix level which is Olympic level. But if I'm perfectly honest I actually have no life goals after London, not Paralympic, not horses I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm not lost I'm just enjoying the journey at the moment and I'm going to see what happens at London and then after London. I'm getting quite an interest in motor sport and you may think horse riding/motor sport but there's a link there, you use feel to decide how fast you're going to take the car round bends etc through you body you feel what the car's doing. And I've always loved motor sport. But I think I probably will carry on with the horses to what degree obviously you've heard my lifestyle, I've still got bills to pay etc. etc so I probably can't afford to retire, to be honest. So I shall probably be carrying on.	
liz	Just a few facts we haven't got to during this interview that we'd like to mention about. You were hugged as a child by Margaret Thatcher?	
lee	I was carried by Margaret Thatcher...	
liz	Carried by Margaret Thatcher. 	
lee	... up No 10 Downing Street's stairs.	
liz	You learnt to ride on a donkey... 	
lee	I did.	
liz	... called Sally.	
lee	Called Sally. 	
liz	Fantastic. 	
lee	She was my BMX bike. 	
liz	You have a CBE, an MBE and an OBE?	
lee	Yes I do. 	
liz	What's missing from those initials?	
lee	You know I knew where you were heading there?	
liz	What, what?	
lee	You're just trying to wind me up aren't you? 	
liz	What?	
lee	Well if I was an Olympian, and I love Great Britain and I think there's a lot more equality than there used to be, but I am still quite shocked that the Honours systems hasn't caught up with being quite as equal with their Paralympians as an Olympian. And if I'd gone to Sydney and won the three gold medals that I did I would be Sir Lee, which I'm not quite sure is a very nice word anyway, to be honest. 	
liz	Sir Lee.	
Lee	You're Sir Lee. But my first name is David so if I ever get that knighthood I might have to change back to Sir David.	
tony	That Sir Lee it's a good wine isn't it, Sir Lee?	
lee	I don't know. I just thought it was a not very nice person. 	
liz	Well, Lee, thank you for that. Thanks Lee.	
lee	Cheers. Bye bye. 	
tony	Talk soon, Lee. Cheers thanks very much. 	
lee	Bye. 	
rob	This was an Ouch Talk Show podcast extra. To listen to more go to www.bbc.co.uk/ouch.