Ouch Podcast #70 – May 2011
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Kiruna Stamell 

kiruna	Thanks for downloading me. I'm Kiruna Stamell and sitting right there is Rob Crossan. 	
rob	Certainly is. On today's show what do disabled people get from opening up their lives to a TV audience? We'll be speaking to Sophie Morgan from 'Britain's Missing Top Model' and 'Beyond Boundaries' fame; Jono Lancaster, subject of recent documentary, 'So What if My Baby's Born Like Me?' And editor of Disability Now Ian Macrae. 	
kiruna	And damn me we intend to get to the bottom of these issues don't we Rob? Later we'll be meeting the ((autastic - sic)) Captain Angelo. 	
ROB	And on the other side of this little jingle upsurge we'll be talking about the Wizard of Oz, so don't flick your iPod off please, thank you. 
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show.]
Tough times, Kiruna, tough times. 	
kiruna	Yes they are indeed. 	
rob	And how are you finding it as a disability, bility, bility, bility person?	
kiruna	Oh I'm on the breadline. No I'm working several jobs at the moment. I'm dashing about all over the place. But you know it's difficult you've kind of got to start grafting. 	
rob	It's one of those things I've actually been looking for an excuse to actually use my disability to get jobs. Because I often found this when I was much younger, when I was 21 or so, that I actually used my disability to get a traineeship on channel four. 	
kiruna	How did you do that did you bring it up? 	
rob	Because I knew that they wanted... they had a disability criteria they had to get one person, at least one, on this traineeship, the tokenism as it was and still is I imagine, to be disabled. So in the interview I kind of said, "Well what can you do for me as I've got a disability?" And you could see their eyes lighten up it was like, "Brilliant we can tick a box." And when I saw the six candidates who had got through on this traineeship scheme at channel four they were all... it was like a Benetton ad; there was one black, one Asian, one gay, one disabled, one... sorry visually impaired, one dyslexic and one normal. It was really, really strange it was so conceited, so contrived. 	
kiruna	Well we've all got to tick a box don't we?	
rob	Exactly and I think why not kind of exploit that box ticking. 	
kiruna	But it's not just about box ticking, I mean like I personally think that disability and difference, when you broaden it out, really, you know, it's about bringing diversity to a workplace which is positive. Because I think if you've got a healthy diverse workplace or community it feeds through in other ways, in that the output then becomes more inclusive because people have an understanding of it on a day to day basis and incorporate it, not only into their work practice, but then what they're outputting to a larger degree their lives. So yeah on the one hand it is ticking a box and people are desperately trying to do that, or they were particularly a few years ago. And on the other it's also actually about celebrating the positive aspects of being disabled. 	
rob	So is that how you feel then when you're taking some of your typecast short people roles... 	
kiruna	I don't do type... 	
rob	... that you're celebrating your condition?	
KIRUNA	I do not do typecast short people roles.	
rob	What are you talking about? What are you talking about?	
KIRUNA	Okay, okay I did audition this week for Munchkin Woman number 8 but people we all have our price. 	
rob	And you have the temerity to get angry with me and then you tell me you've auditioned to be a Munchkin. 	
KIRUNA	Well, you know, like I said, we all have our price. I don't know what my price is yet, I haven't actually been offered the role and I can't say too much about it because there was a confidentiality agreement. 	
rob	But we can say this is a prequel to the Wizard of Oz can't we? 	
KIRUNA	Yeah. And we can say that yes Kiruna Stamell met her, I don't know what's that moment in your life that you meet and it's kind of like a real awakening where you're challenged, you're challenged by the very boundaries and ideologies you'd put in place, like your edifice is that the right word? I met my edifice. 	
rob	Are you sure? It sounds like you might have met your nemesis by the sounds of it. Why Munchkin Woman number 8? Did they just look at you... 	
KIRUNA	Why not 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1?	
rob	Yeah. 	
KIRUNA	I do not know because to be honest out of all the Munchkins in all the world I would have put me up as number one. 	
rob	Well that's very big of you to say, well, you’ll have to excuse the pun, big of you to say so. But I mean how many are there, can you say that? 	
KIRUNA	Well we know there's definitely seven... 	
rob	There are 800 have they got everyone... 	
KIRUNA	... or eight. 	
rob	So you're at the bottom on the list? That's a bit demeaning isn't it? 	
KIRUNA	I don't... look I don't know. To be honest I really don't know. Hollywood called, I got over excited, I answered the email, I did the audition, I don't know what my politics about it is because I have made a career of trying not to do the sorts of things that are stereotypical but I would never write anything off. I've not seen the script. 	
rob	And is a Munchkin a positive role though really? 	
KIRUNA	I wouldn't say it's a negative role. 	
rob	It sounds like you're conveniently forgetting your politics here in exchange for a massive cheque. 	
KIRUNA	We don't know what the cheque is do we? 	
rob	It's going to be pretty massive. 	
KIRUNA	Look they might not even employ me, it might be CGI. Do you know what I mean? It might be... 	
rob	Bad news. 	
KIRUNA	... Cate Blanchett munchkin'd down. 	
rob	That would be amazing. Well actually no it wouldn't be amazing because then you wouldn't have got the job. But I'd like to see it anyway. 	
KIRUNA	But do you know what if... I can't say too much, I should stop there. I've got to draw the line there lest I put a foot wrong and do myself out of a potentially amazing wonderful role and I desperately want to win that Oscar for. 	
rob	Even though you desperately hate yourself for having to do it. 	
KIRUNA	I wouldn't say I hate myself. I mean it's not...	
rob	You're having to swallow a few of your ethics aren't you? 	
KIRUNA	Well am I though? Why? 	
rob	From what you were saying earlier on it sounds like you are. 	
KIRUNA	Why? 	
rob	Because you sound like you don't want to take these kind of typecast stereotypical roles? 	
KIRUNA	If I played a Munchkin what impact do you think that would have on the big society?	
rob	I think it would do nothing other than perpetuate the things that everybody thinks about incredibly short people anyway. 	
KIRUNA	Which are that we sing, dance, sew, make nice clothes.	
rob	Exactly you're a kind of circus performers. 	
KIRUNA	That there's a danger we might storm the emerald city.	
rob	Yeah all these kind of... yeah these ridiculous things, exactly. 	
KIRUNA	I have to say when people approach me with stereotypes it's more likely to be the circus and elves and... I mean Munchkins...	
rob	And you consider these to be... 	
KIRUNA	... are the mythical creatures, they're not human. 	
rob	So elf is alright but Munchkin isn't? 	
KIRUNA	No I would have said Munchkin's alright but elf isn't. But then again...	
rob	Do you live in the woods? 	
KIRUNA	No do you know what it is, Rob, it's no one's offered me a big enough cheque to do either yet but I just don't want to do myself out of any potential work. 	
rob	Yeah nicely diplomatic there. 	
KIRUNA	Look we said it was tough times and in tough times someone has to question their ethics. 	
rob	You are the Ban Ki-moon of short people. Incredible fence sitting there. 	
KIRUNA	No look let me just say I will do my best out there in the world to not sell out ever. However... 	
rob	Here we go, here we go. 	
KIRUNA	No. We all have our price I mean even you, Rob, even you would prostitute yourself if offered the right amount of cash now come on. 	
rob	Oh I'm going to die.  That’s ridiculous!	
KIRUNA	Come on wouldn’t you? You would bend over for the right money. 	
rob	Bend over?	
KIRUNA	I said right money. I haven't speculated... 	
rob	I heard you. 	
kiruna	... what that would be. 	
rob	I heard exactly what you said. Look I'm happy to take on any albino roles going. I have no qualms. But I fall between a rock and a hard place. I've been asked to go on albino documentaries on BBC3 and yeah they say... 	
KIRUNA	You're not white enough. 	
rob	... "Rob, you're perfect." Yeah exactly. So at one point I'm getting discriminated for being an albino. And at another point I'm getting discriminated for not being albino enough. 	
KIRUNA	If I was the producer of that docu I would so like contract you to have a year of being outside of the sun because at the moment you're looking slightly reddish which is taking away... 	
rob	You'll pale me up a bit. 	
KIRUNA	Yeah well you're looking more red today rather than white. 	
rob	Well albino's do sort of burn you know. 	
KIRUNA	I know a bit like in terms of the camera I'm not interested in a burnt albino. 	
rob	You just have a really massive flash.	
KIRUNA	I want a white, whiter than white, napisan white, bleach white... 	
rob	Washing powder white.	
KIRUNA	Washing powder white skin. 	
rob	Okay. That's what you want. 	
KIRUNA	And you're not doing it for me. No. 	
rob	That's what you want from my disability? I do feel like I'm letting people down. 	
KIRUNA	And you're hair is strawberry. 	
rob	Yeah I know. It never used to be. It's gone dark. I don't know what's going on. 	
KIRUNA	And I want hair that looks the colour of alabaster. So I'm really not interested in this kind of maybe two degrees away from being properly albino. 	
rob	I'm a half cast, I'm well aware of it. 	
KIRUNA	And your eyes aren't even red like albino bunny rabbits. 	
rob	Like albino rabbits the ones that you romp with in the woods when you're playing a munchkin. 	
KIRUNA	I want my albino human to look like an albino bunny. 	
rob	I want you to have an albino bunny as a pet. 	
KIRUNA	They should just make the documentary about albino bunnies and I could instead of being Munchkin Woman number 27 I could be... 	
rob	You've gone down I thought you were 8? 	
KIRUNA	... David Attenborough.	
rob	You've gone from 8 to 27. 	
KIRUNA	Well it depends again like I said on the amount of cash. 	
rob	Oh I see, right fine, of course. 	
KIRUNA	But if I was Munchkin Woman number 27... 	
rob	Ethics, Ladies and gentlemen, ethics. 	
kIRUNA	... I could well I could actually reject that and instead be David Attenborough, the Kiruna Stamell David Attenborough equivalent of albino bunny rabbit documentary makers. 	
rob	So back to work it is then. Me as a not quite albino and you as a not quite 27... 	
KIRUNA	Munchkin. 	
rob	... Munchkin. Perfect well that's our employment opportunities sorted out. 	
KIRUNA	We'll just have to start prostituting ourselves. I said, Rob, we both have our price. 	
rob	Well I think mine's... how cheap is yours? 	
kiruna	I don't know, I haven't been made an offer yet that was enticing. People have mistaken me as a porn star but that's actually just a mistaken identity thing no one's actually put an offer on the table. 	
rob	Because there actually is a short person porn star that looks like you. 	
kiruna	And she looks... no god no she looks nothing like me. That's the bitter irony. 	
rob	So basically they just think oh short naked person. 	
kiruna	Yeah. 	
rob	And they immediately think of you.  	
kiruna	Well hang on, no, I wasn't naked. 	
rob	Oh I see, right. 	
kiruna	No they just think short person, oh I've seen somebody short ooh in blue movies and adult films. It happened in Trafalgar Square this guy was like, "We're at Trafalgar Square do you want to come and earn some money with me? I've seen you in blue movies." 	
rob	That says so much more about him than it does about you doesn't it? 	
kiruna	It really does. 	
rob	That not only does he watch what would call it dwarf porn?	
kiruna	Dwarf fetish porn. 	
rob	Dwarf fetish porn, but he's happy to approach complete strangers and make that his opening line. 	
kiruna 	Yeah. And it was funny because at the time I was employed and I just like, "No thanks I have a job." But you know what now? Now I'd have to actually consider it. 
[Jingle: You can subscribe for free to the Ouch Talk Show by going to bbc.co.uk/podcast where you'll find us listed under entertainment, that's bbc.co.uk/podcast.] 	
rob	Still to come on the Ouch Talk Show. 
[Playing music clip]
We'll be joined by two members of this band Captain Angelo and you can hear this song in full. Stay tuned. 	
kiruna	Here's a list for you: Freaks of Nature, Small Team Big World, Crip on a Trip, Don't Call Me Stupid, The Crippendales, Sectioned, The Boy with the Incredible Brain - all recent documentaries with a focus on disability. There seemed to be more than ever than before today we're asking why and what did disabled people get out of appearing on them. 	
rob	So with us we've got two stars of these shows. Hello Sophie Morgan. 	
sophie 	Hello. 	
rob	Which one were you in? 	
sophie	I was in, I've been in a few, I wasn't in any of the listed ones that you've just read out, but I was in one called 'Beyond Boundaries' unless you did read that. And 'Britain's Missing Top Model' as well. 	
kiruna	No they weren't on my list. 	
sophie	Oh they weren't. There's more. 	
rob	And on the line from Leeds is Jono Lancaster. Hello Jono.	
jono	Hello mate. 	
rob	And what were your documentaries called? 	
jono	My first one was 'Love Me, Love my Face'. And the one that's just been on recently is 'So What if My Baby's Born Like Me?' 	
rob	And also with us is Ian Macrae, editor of Disability Now, and former Head of the BBC's now defunct disability programmes unit.	
ian	Thank you, now defunct yes. 	
rob	Thanks for coming in on your birthday. 	
kiruna	Yes on your special day. Let's hear a clip from 'So What if My Baby's Born Like Me' a recent BBC3 documentary featuring Jono in which he explores whether he might pass on his condition, Treacher Collins Syndrome, should he choose to have children. In the clip Jono has just discovered he has a 50% chance of passing it on and has been offered embryo screening to help filter out the bad ones. This is his emotional response. 
I feel like I should put a stop to it now rather than having my children go through this frustrating thing because I feel like I'm disrespecting a lot of people. And I feel like everybody with a genetic condition out there I feel like I'm insulting them in some way, and that's what's really bothering me. Because I'm proud to be who I am and there's so many amazing people and stuff like this is like eliminating them people.]
That's deeply personal stuff, Jono. 	
jono	It's got me all goose pimply this end. Yeah. 	
kiruna	So how does it make you feel hearing back about I guess retrospectively how you were thinking about what was going on? 	
jono	Well that got filmed in March so it's all still fresh in my mind and it's something that I think about all the time. And I've got 14,000 messages on Facebook with people just giving me their opinion, and everywhere I go people are giving me their opinion so it's something that's on my mind all the time. 	
kiruna	So you really opened up there and I guess kind of exposed yourself to potential criticism and the opinions of others?	
jono	Yeah but it's something that I wanted to do and I'm proud that I did it, and I'm glad that I did it. And a lot of people have been so nice and so supportive so yeah I'm glad I did it. 	
rob	Sophie, talking about personal stuff you memorably told 'Beyond Boundaries' viewers exactly how you go to the toilet. Are you glad you did that? 	
sophie	Yeah it doesn't really... The interesting thing I found about appearing on any form of reality TV is that there's a line between not wanting to upset other people that are in your position because they may not want someone in my... somebody else who's watching who has a spinal cord injury may not want that information to be shared on TV. Some, however, really... I got a lot of feedback saying thank you for explaining things, I am a bit shy I don't want to talk about it, but people now understand my condition. So you do get a bit of a difference of opinion but at the end of the day I think I was very, very young then and I was very new to my injury and it was very early days in the whole process of recovering and coming to terms with it. So I think I was really kind of I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about what I wanted to prove to people, what I could do, what despite being disabled I'm still able to do, and it was very much a kind of... I was just venting I think then. I don't regret it but I can understand why some people may not want that to be put out on television. I personally don't really mind, it's part and parcel of what happened to me and what is my condition, so that doesn't bother me. But I would never want to offend other people in my situation. And I think it's one of those things that maybe should just be left private so you don't upset others that are in your shoes too. 	
rob	Because you said, I read... was reading earlier that you said... someone said you felt you were very naive at the time. 	
sophie	Yeah. 	
rob	And you weren't very happy with a lot of the ways you were portrayed in both of those shows. And I kind of think from knowing, having had a decade of reality TV now, surely you must have known that there was a very strong chance that you were going to get portrayed in a way that you didn't really like, because that's what happens to everyone in a reality TV show.	
sophie	It seems doesn't it? I don't know, I suppose when I refer to myself as being naive I was naive in the sense of how to deal with an injury, how to deal with a disability that kind of thing. 	
ian	The point is you were newly disabled, you weren't naive about going on telly. You were naive about... 	
sophie	Well I suppose you could say I was naive about going on TV as well, it's hard to say. 	
ian	I mean it was being a disabled person and not knowing, being a newly disabled person and not knowing the kind of tricks that the kind of people... 	
sophie	Well I have to say... 	
ian	...  who make programmes get up to.	
sophie	I don't know I mean at the end of the day they can't make you into something that you're not. Don't get me wrong I know that the editing is powerful... 	
rob	Extremely powerful. 	
sophie	It's extremely powerful. And I have to say a lot of people don't probably realise to the extent of the editing how powerful it can be. But there is an element of it's the truth and you say things and whether they're taken out of context or not they do come out of your mouth, you know there is stuff that is said. And in other environments you may see that that was actually not meant in that way but the way it's being shown it comes across that way. So it's hard to say. But it was early days. And having done those two shows it wasn't about... I know they're both reality TV shows, but for me they were very different. The way that it was sold to us which is obviously something that the public aren't aware of at the time because it's behind the scenes it's the beginning stages; we got approached with this fantastic concept right we're going to take some amazing disabled people, we're going to show the world in this ground breaking series just what disabled people can do. It's so empowering. I was like this is fab, this is awesome, this is what we want. This is what I want to be a part of. Even if you're disabled you can still go across the mountain and ((0:17:29.5?)). But then we got... we watched it and I suddenly was very... I was quite disappointed because instead of it being focusing on "Look at Adie, he's going up the bloody volcano on his bottom" that was amazing, it was actually focusing on me having a tantrum or getting ill... 	
KIRUNA	Being into personal dramas. 	
sophie	Exactly. And unfortunately it kind of was the antithesis of what it said it was going to be.  	
KIRUNA	Now, Ian, you were having a bit of a snicker there for a moment. What are your observations of such things? How do disability documentaries compare to those of ten years ago? I know that you've observed what's been happening both in the mainstream and in disability culture. So what's your take on things? 	
ian	Well the first thing to say is the ones that were being made a bit more than ten years ago were much better than the ones that are being made today, and that's a quite serious point because they were being made by people like me. They were being made by disabled people. 	
rob	That sounds a little self serving, Ian. 	
ian	No it's not self serving at all because I'm not just talking about me I'm talking about the unit that was set up to make programmes with and about disabled people which were made by disabled people. 	
kiruna	So there were disabled people on the production team and driving the content?	
ian	Yeah. Disabled people were signing the shows off... well no the channel controllers were signing the shows off, but disabled people were signing the finished programme off to go to the channel controller for his approval. Disabled people were pitching the programme to the channel controllers. And the point that I want to pick up from what Sophie was saying which is absolutely central here, is that what we did... the difference between what we did and what Sophie ended up doing is all about control. It's all about who controls the agenda. And the fact is that when we were making programmes with and about disabled people we were controlling and they were with us controlling the agenda. And in exactly the same way people in the Asian programmes unit up in Birmingham and people in the Afro-Caribbean programmes unit up in Manchester were making programmes from their own perspectives and their own agendas. What's happened since is we've gone back much more, you only have to say how many disabled people are now employed behind the cameras in television, and it's a hell of a lot less than it was when my unit was running, not surprisingly, because the unit employed a lot of people. One of the things I was asked about was what's the reason that disabled people want to go on telly? Most disabled people, including myself, and including about 90% of the other disabled people I know who have been on TV do it because we're tarts, because we're media tarts and we like to show ourselves to people.  	
rob	And we should probably point out at this stage that we don't have a BBC spokesman on hand to actually react to what you're saying, Ian. 	
ian	I'm not just talking about the BBC I'm talking about what channel five did years back, throughout the last decade. I'm talking about what channel four sometimes do well and sometimes do really badly. 	
rob	Do you not think there's a danger that if you do just use exclusively disabled behind the scenes staff you're almost in a danger of ghettoising it? Don't you need a mixture, a diversity of able bodied and disabled people to make a truly successful television programme?	
Ian	I couldn't have made any of the shows that I've made without the assistance of a sighted video tape editor. 	
rob	But I don't just mean in a facilitation way I mean in terms of a creative input. 	
ian	Absolutely. We also had a channel controller who signed up to the shows, a series of channel controllers, commissioning what we were offering them. And so of course you need the collaboration I'm not saying you need a block where there's a whole load of disabled programme makers making programmes that nobody's ever going to commission, of course you need that collaboration yeah. 	
rob 	Okay. So we're going to lighten it up just for a moment, we've got a little quick quiz for the three of you. So what I want to know is I've got a list of documentaries here which I'm going to read out to you and very, very quickly I want you all, Ian, Sophie, and Jono I want you to shout out whether you think these are true or false are these real of fake documentaries. Are you ready? 	
sophie	Go for it. 	
rob	Okay. Right, Jono are you ready? 	
jono	 Yeah. 	
rob	Okay, let's go. The Man with Toes for Fingers? 	
ian and jono	False. 	
rob	The Girl who Cried Breast Milk?	
ian and sophie	True. 	
kiruna	The Boy with Wool for Hair?	
ian	True.	
sophie	Wool for hair? No, false. 	
jono	That must be false.	
kirunA	Okay. Two people have said false, I'll put down false. 	
rob	The Woman Who's Breast Was Her Nose?	
jono	False.	
ian	Good gracious!	
sophie	It's probably true. 	
kiruna	Oh that's a split, we'll split that. 	
ian	I saw that one, that was on channel five. 	
rob	Next.	
kiruna	The Girl with the See Through Stomach? 	
ian	That must be true. 	
sophie	It might be true yeah. 	
jono	True.	
rob	The Boy Who Gave Birth to his Father?	
ian	True. 	
sophie	Definitely true. 	
KIRUNA	Okay. The Man Who Wee'd Fanta? 	
sophie	False.	
jono	False. 	
rob	The Transsexual with the Inside Out Mouth?	
sophie	Probably true.	
Ian	Oh that's definitely true. 	
sophie	Probably true. 	
kiruna	The Boy with a Tumour for a Face?	
sophie	Yeah probably true.	
ian	Yeah that's true. Only I heard a different version. It was the boy with the arse for a face. 	
ROB	Well guys, I have to tell you that every single one of those is false except for the last one...	
sophie	Oh okay. 	
rob	... The Boy with a Tumour for a Face. How fascinating that you thought that a lot of them really had been made. 	
sophie 	You see it could be, it really could be. 	
kiruna	The See Through Stomach was the one that people were really convinced of. 	
rob	What does that say then that you thought so many of these were true, I mean this can't be good can it?	
sophie	It's just they're making a vast array of extraordinary television shows these days. 	
KIRUNA	They come up with amazing titles. 	
sophie 	And come up with extraordinary titles, exactly. 	
ian	I do think that it shows that TV programme makers now are increasingly going to the edge in order to...	
sophie	Absolutely. 	
ian	... in order to... 	
sophie	To get viewers, yeah. 	
ian	... attract commissions really. And then to get viewers.	
sophie	But it also shows that the general public are fascinated by these sort of stories, it's not just obviously the commissioners, they know that people want to watch this stuff. 	
rob	I will throw this one open to Sophie and Jono, I'd be really keen to know if you think appearing on these shows, you've done two or three each now, do they help boost your employability or is it purely just your profile in a very transient way? 	
sophie	Well I don't know about Jono I come from a different perspective I suppose. I'm not out to... 'Beyond Boundaries' aside which was very much a new thing, the modelling show I was fascinating by the concept of representation, fairer representation that for me was why I got involved. It wasn't about me trying to be a model. And the next show was actually all about the opportunity to go and meet some of the world's leading stem cell researchers and scientists and for me that was a fantastic opportunity. So I took a chance with these shows to go and do something that I would never normally do in my real life. This isn't about me trying to be famous or trying to up my profile. It's more about just the fact that I've ended up in a wheelchair and these extraordinary opportunities landed on my lap and go for it, that's what life's about, take a chance and see what happens, and it was extraordinarily interesting and I would do it again, you know it was fun. 	
rob	And what about you Joni, do you think at any point while you've been making these documentaries I find it hard to believe that at the corner of your mind you weren't thinking, oh you know what this could open up a couple of career doors to me to do something else. Is that something that's ever gone through your mind? 	
jono	No, no. Mine is purely about awareness. I've met so many kids in the documentaries that I've done and I want to try and make a little bit of a better place for them. And it's not about my career, it's not about money or fame or anything like that, it's all about raising awareness. And through it I've been able to go to schools, I've worked with charities and it's all volunteer work in my own time, it's not about creating my own profile or anything like that, it's purely about awareness. 	
rob	Did you raise awareness then Sophie?	
sophie	I don't... who knows what I did. I know from the feedback that I continue to get today because the show's been taken worldwide, that people were really, really inspired by what they saw, and I'm not just talking about the disabled community. Actually the disabled community were more irritated by some of the shows that I was on. But a lot of people were just interested in it. And I have to agree with you, Jono, that a lot of it well I didn't get paid very mu--... I didn't get paid for any of this, it was really fascinating and it does help normalise disability. Putting disabled people on television in the right context really helps people in the general public to see that disability should not be ostracised that it is absolutely part of day to day life and that they are normal people. It's easy to say that the shows that are being made today, I don't know, to be honest, that the shows being made today aren't as good as the ones that were. But if you look at TV in general they're making more reality shows, so it's not just the disabled shows of reality shows all shows seem to be about reality and we're just slotting into that arena as well. And as much as you can criticise I think that the people that made, for example, ((Love?)) who made Britain's Missing or ((Diverse?)) who made Beyond Boundaries they really went out there with the best intentions. They didn't want to make disability seem something that should be judged and criticised, it was very much within quite an altruistic and good intentions to change how disability's considered. 	
kiruna	Ian, is there a documentary that you did like? 	
ian	Gosh that's hard isn't it? I watched, well as I said... 	
rob	What is the perfect disability... 	
sophie	This is so interesting I think disabled people have such opinions on disability programmes. 	
ian	Presumably I'm not allowed to be like Louis Armstrong on Desert Island Discs and choose five of my own out of the eight which is what he did.	
rob	Definitely not. 	
ian	Because I didn't actually make that many programmes, I was responsible for looking after…..	
rob	I'm talking as a viewer when you're at…..	
ian	Okay, as a viewer I think I'm probably quite hard to impress. I quite enjoyed... 	
sophie	But I think a lot of the disabled community are hard to impress, from what I've experienced.  I don’t know about….	
ian	Yeah because we approach it with such cringing... 	
sophie	With fear I think we're worried... 	
ian	... cringingly low expectations... 	
sophie	... about what's going to be shown. 	
ian	... and fear. Exactly yes. 	
sophie 	This thing it's because we're so the disabled community, and myself included, are so critical because there are so few programmes going out that when there is a show that is showing disability you're like, "Oh, oh... 	
rob	You so desperately want it to be good. 	
sophie	... I really want to watch." 	
KIRUNA	You notice it and it stands out. 	
sophie	And you critique it so much.	
ian	I'll tell you where good things are being done and that's in the area of mental health. And that's partly because you've got a lot of celebs. I've just interviewed for the magazine, I've just interviewed Alistair Campbell and you've got people like him coming out and talking about their mental health, you've got people like Stephen Fry. And I remember that two-parter that Stephen Fry made with the BBC about discovering his and coming to terms with his bipolar condition. And that was very well done because it was completely from his point of view. They didn't have doctors saying, "Oh well of course this is why this has happened." Stephen Fry just said, "This is how I am, this is why sometimes I like being what I am and sometimes I don't like being what I am." But the fact that he was Stephen Fry and carried the kind of weight that he does in terms of his celebrity meant that he was able to say that where a lot of people who aren't Stephen Fry and who don't have that weight of celebrity wouldn't have the opportunity to say that. 	
kiruna	Jono, what would you like to see more of on telly? 	
jono	I think quite a lot of documentaries go for a shock value. Our plan when I did mine was just to show that I'm a regular guy with a regular job with a regular girlfriend, and with regular dreams and regular hopes. And that's all I wanted to do. I want to be a regular guy and that's all I see myself as, I don't see myself with a disability or anything like that. I just want us all to be the same. 	
sophie	Which is the same with most disabled people. 	
Ian	But that raises an interesting point because actually the way to do that isn't to make special programmes... 	
sophie	About disability. 	
ian	... again comes back to your point earlier, this is not to make special programmes about us it's to say let's just have more disabled woman on 'Take Me Out'. Let's have more disabled contestants on... 	
sophie	Or presenters. 	
ian	... on 'BGT'.	
sophie	Like Kerry who does the children... 	
ian	Or people like Kerry... exactly who are kind of, you know... 	
sophie	So you're putting disability into a normal environment and it's not the focus of the show, it's not the reason why we're there, we're there for our own... I mean I have to say I've been approached for various potential presenting roles and it's a very interesting... in light of this debate it's really interesting to see why they want me. Half of them say we want you to do something on disability; half of them say we don't want you to do anything on disability. And it's kind of like the channels are putting out the message we want something but we don't want it all to be about that, but we do but we... they're kind of not sure where they want to go with it.	
rob	Is there like a camera height issue or anything like that?	
sophie	No, no, no.	
rob	Nothing like that at all? 	
sophie	Not like that. It's more to do with the fact that if you're going to... say, for example, I did a presenting job on the 'One Show' it was about young children struggling with getting electric wheelchairs. So it's all about disability which is absolutely fine, of course, it's a subject that is important to me. But that doesn't help normalise disability. What would help normalise disability is someone presenting, say, for example, someone like myself in a wheelchair presenting on an Arts show.	
rob	'Top Gear' or 'Late Review'.	
sophie	Yeah. So it's not about...	
Ian	No, no, no not 'Top Gear' please not 'Top Gear'.	
sophie	No okay. 	
rob	You'd actually be far more flattered if you were asked to present a non disabled role.	
sophie	And that's why it's so wonderful to see when you see someone like Kerry Burnell doing children's presenting she is normalising disability for children in a way that it's invaluable, it's unbelievable because it's not the focus of anything she does. If you watch it it's not about her disability or what she can't do and children are going to grow up knowing oh well I've seen someone on TV like that it's not a big deal. 	
rob	So, Jono Lancaster, Sophie Morgan, Ian Macrae thanks for being part of this. And if you want to find out more about our three guests, we'll be linking to their stuff from our blog via bbc.co.uk/ouch. 
[Jingle: Have you seen our blog? No? Well you can find useful links to things we've mentioned and you can also leave comments about the show. Go to bbc.co.uk/ouch. That's bbc.co.uk/ouch.]
We're now joined by Miles and John Peckover two members of Captain Angelo, a six piece Indi folk jazz ensemble. Hello chaps. 	
john	Hi.	
miles	Hiya. 	
kiruna	Hello. 	
rob	And in a beautiful first for Ouch Miles isn't disabled but thinks he is and is awaiting a diagnosis. You are in the disability waiting room my friend. Tell us a little bit about this? 	
miles	Well I come from a family who have the spectrum of different ASD related issues. And I always thought I had aspects of it throughout my teenage-hood. And now I think I'm pretty sure about getting diagnosed and assessed, and I'm in the process of getting formally assessed at the moment. 	
kiruna	And Miles and John you're both brothers aren't you?	
miles and john	Yeah we are.	
kiruna	And so, John, what's your disability, your confirmed disability, what have you got? 	
john	Well I was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome at about age 13. I was always sort of different compared to my siblings and stuff like that. 	
KIRUNA	And just remind us again what you've got, Rob? 	
rob	Yeah there's three men in a room all with Asperger's. I was only diagnosed last year. 	
kiruna	And I'm alone with them. 	
rob	We're all wriggling on our seats very uncomfortably. 	
miles	This is kind of like the Big Bang theory already. 	
kiruna	I just can't wait to hear what they're going to say. 	
rob	As all the best people with Asperger's do let's avoid that issue completely and sit on it and hope it goes away. Tell us about your band and your music. I heard a pivotal moment for you when you were starting this huge group that you have is finding a piano in the street.	
miles	Oh yeah, that was years... 	
rob	That's a handy find if you want to be in a group. 	
miles	It was outside a museum in Wood Vale which is a little road round the corner from…..	
kiruna	Was it a working piano?	
miles	Oh yeah it works a treat but the thing is I've got to shift it like a whole semi... like a whole tone up. So when you're recording with it and you have your headphones on it sounds completely incongruous. But then you've got to work it all out which is quite nice for transposing as well with things like the trumpet and the clarinet you've got to transpose for because that's also a tone down, it's like B flat. 	
rob	And it sounds like you've got one of your biggest gigs coming up at Glastonbury this year. Will that be your biggest gig to date?	
miles	Yeah hopefully. 	
John	Yeah definitely. We've played at a few gigs, a few pubs and gigs for friends and stuff like that but never anything so big as Glastonbury before. 	
rob	Fantastic. You know when you're on you haven't got some horrible 10:30 in the morning slot have you?	
miles	No idea it could be. 	
rob	Could be. I'll set the alarm clock then and be up bright and early. 	
KIRUNA	I love the absolute pedantic answers I'm getting from you guys. It's definitely Asperger's spectrum going on in here. 	
miles	I'm not being pedantic at all, what are you talking about? 	
KIRUNA	Oh just a semi-tone up. Yes just found this random piano. Yeah just being, you know, a bit of a savant. Right, okay I want to find more about the human-ness of everybody in this room, so quick fire questions for you two in the band. Fresh or frozen? Pick a word.	
Miles	Fresh. 	
ROB	Vampires or zombies? 	
john	Vampires.	
miles	People. 	
john 	They're sexier. 	
miles	People. 	
KIRUNA	People's not an option. You've got this is...	
miles	Zombies. Okay, fine. Fine vampires. 	
KIRUNA	Okay. If you could live in any country it would be...?	
miles	Paris. Even though it's not a country it's France. 	
KIRUNA	France. And what about you? 	
john	Hm... 	
rob	Quickly, quickly!	
john	Oh right, hm... 	
KIRUNA	Come on John. 	
john	Make it Canada. 	
kiruna	Okay. 	
miles	Why?	
rob 	Never mind the why?	
kiruna	These are quick fire questions.	
rob	Never mind the why. 	
KIRUNA	Quick, quick, quick!	
rob	The person I'd most like to duet with is...?	
miles	Francoise Hardy.	
john	I have no idea. 	
KIRUNA	Shouldn't it be each other? 	
miles	No.	
Rob	Ebony and Ivory. 	
john	We do enough of that already.	
kiruna	They're breaking up.	
rob	Okay, next question, Kiruna.	
kiruna	Live streaming of an international terrorist's death or a trip to the cinema?	
john	Trip to the cinema all the way. 	
miles	Live streaming of an international terrorist's death at the cinema. 	
kiruna	The band is on the rocks. 	
rob	Under the sea or in the air? 	
miles and john	In the air. 	
kiruna	Mac or PC?	
Miles and john	Mac.	
rob	Holiday in Devon or holiday in Shetland? 	
miles	Devon. Devon.	
kiruna	The big reason I get up in the morning is...? 	
miles 	To love my fellow human beings. 	
kiruna	Oh that's nice. What about you John, why do you get out of bed? 	
john	I'm hungry. 	
kiruna	Oh fair doos. 	
rob	The big reason I get up in the morning is hunger. That's a good one. Finally, customers who like Captain Angelo may also like...? 	
miles	Wensleydale with cranberry. 	
john	I don't know. Might also like, I don't know... 	
miles	Simpsons impressions, go! 	
john	Indeed. 	
rob	Oh yeah go on do your Simpson, do your Homar.	
john	[Impression: Oh this is Homer Simpson speaking. 
And now it's Marge. 
Now it's Krusty the clown.]	
rob	That's amazing.	
kiruna	I'm feeling slightly unnerved. 	
john	I can do every single grown up in the The Simpsons. 	
miles	He can as well. 	
KIRUNA	But you don't do the children? 	
john	No I can't do them because my voice broke sadly.	
miles	His voice broke. It was such a shame like we were... 	
rob 	God damn puberty. 	
kiruna	Before puberty you were able to do all the characters.	
miles	All of them. It was nuts.	
john	I can do entire Simpsons episodes.	
miles	We were moving house once and we were staying in this hotel because the moving had taken just a bit too long and Jay was like, we were in the same room and I was like, "The TV's not working, Jay what do we do?" And he was like, "I'll just do a whole episode." 	
john	And I did. 	
miles	It got to that point at 6:00 o'clock where you switch on channel two when you're eight years old and it's just like, "There's no Robot Wars!"	
rob	Could you do a whole episode now? Give us the first 20 seconds of a Simpsons episode with all the characters.	
miles	Do the gun shop. 	
john	[Impression: Whoa careful there…..	
rob	[Singing theme tune]	
john	[Impression: Whoa careful there…….
Homer: I don't have to be careful I got a gun.
Well you probably want the accessory kit, holster?
Homer: Oh yeah.
Bandelier?
Homer: Baby
Silencer?
Homer: Ahh!
Loudner?
Homer: Ah.
Speed cocker?
Homar: Oh I like the sound of that.
And this is for shooting down police helicopters.
Homar: I don't need anything like that - yet. 	
KIRUNA	And the BAFTA goes to... oh that's fabulous. 	
miles	He's amazing.	
rob	Can I just keep you in a cage as a pet and carry you around with me for the rest of my life?	
kiruna	We're meant to be promoting positive images of people with disability there, Rob. Not a "Let's use them for their tricks, put them in a cage and charge people money to stare at them." 	
rob	Sorry Munchkin 27.	
KIRUNA	Yeah but you've got to pay to look at me. Okay. So how can people find out about Captain Angelo? How do people find out about it? 	
miles	There are several different ways. First of all you'll be able to find me on the street with my guitar pretty much 24/7.	
kiruna	And if you have access to the internet? 	
miles 	Oh yeah Facebook Captain Angelo. We don't have a MySpace because like that's totally like last year. And SoundCloud as well, Captain Angelo. 	
john	We have a couple of samples of our songs as well on mine if you want to listen to them. 	
miles	Oh yeah….	
kiruna	Well we're actually going to give people a bit of a sneaky preview of one of your tracks now, so hold it right there and we'll get you to introduce the track that we're going to be playing out with. So don't move, Rob's got to do a bit of housekeeping just in this second and we'll come back to you. 	
miles	All right. 	
rob	Today's show was brought to you by the letters TV and the number zero. The team were Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey, and studio manager, Gill Drabble. The producer was Damon Rose. And we'll be back in early June. 	
kiruna	And until then goodbye! Meanwhile you guys want to cue your track? 	
john	All right. 	
miles	This song is called I Still Think of You and it was written last year about a girl that I very much love. 	
john	And we both had a really wonderful time recording it in the studio. 	
miles	Lovely.
[Playing music]