Ouch Talk Show February 2012
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Liz Carr 

rob	Thank you for downloading podcast 82 for February. It's the month of love and it's our first regular Talk Show for 2012, the year of the London Olympics and Paralympics. I'm ((dis-ably - sic)) assisted this month by the one and only Liz Carr. What's on the show this month Liz?	
liz	Ruby Wax is going to be going us in about 15 minutes, the TV comedian has recently been exploring her mental health difficulties on stage and inviting input from her audiences. She's here to talk about her new social networking website for people with depression and mental illness. She calls is Black Dog Tribe. 	
rob	And well there's a bit of a tribal feel about the new Section 2, Kevin Mulhern will be dropping by with his take on the recent dramatic events in welfare reform. It's very big news here in the UK, and so we're hearing internationally too. 	
liz	On an entirely different note as we hit the 200 day countdown to mark the Paralympic games in London Ouch regular, Tony Garrett joins us with disabled athlete Jody Cundy for an update on all things sporty. 	
rob	And just when you thought the impairment barrel had been thoroughly scraped we found another person with an all new disabling condition worthy of the Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable treatment. 	
liz	And we play out this month with music from the UK based hip-hop outfit Wheelchair Sports Camp, their front woman, Kalyn Heffernan, joins us for a natter from Colorado. 	
rob	So stay tuned. 
[Jingle: From the BBC in London it's the Ouch Talk Show]	
liz	Rob?	
rob	Yes. 	
liz	Good to be with you. 	
rob	Good to be with you. 	
liz	Because I need some advice from you. 	
rob	Hm from me?	
liz	Yeah you, I thought why not, you know. 	
rob	Just go to the doctors and get some cream. 	
liz	No it won't do this time. 	
rob	Oh okay. 	
liz	You see sometimes, and I think you're going to find this strange, I just want to do mundane daily tasks.	
rob	You want to be boring. Are you tired of being obsessively fascinating all the time? 	
liz	I know it's a lot to live up to but you know those things that normal people do like people with full mobility, I'm talking about here. 	
rob	Like going to the toilet unaided. 	
liz	Going to the toilet unaided. Washing up. 	
rob	Yes.	
liz	Doing the ironing.	
rob	Hm. This sounds like you want to become a housewife from the 1950s. Can I buy you a pinny? 	
liz	I do quite want an apron but no there's something I've realised right, as I'm getting older, that I seem to live a lot in my head okay. And I think it's because I don't do lots of bits with my body. So I've got kind of like limited movement and stuff so it means there's lots of those things, the daily things, the domestic, the housework the doing stuff for myself that I don't do. So I think I'm too active in my head.	
rob	So there's a disparity here your head is a nonstop party and your body's a kind of abandoned playground. 	
liz	Well in a way yeah that's not to say, you know, if your body doesn't work in the way that other people's do that it's useless or anything like that. It's just the, you know, there are certain activities I do where I realise that I worry less and I think less; those sort of - for want of a better word - zoning out things. So one of them is like swimming where my body's actually active. Or another one would be - I'm sorry I've got to say this again - doing a bit of craft stuff. Doing the knitting, Rob. 	
rob	Yeah we've discussed this at length haven't we... 	
liz	I know you're embarrassed. 	
rob	... I was bored then and I'm bored now. 	
liz	I know you're bored now. And if I do that that's great because it's like my body... it's a bit like when you pat your head and rub your tummy you're sort of occupied a bit. 	
rob	So anyway so this is something you think is unique to people with a physical disability so that they actually thrive off even the most dull and mundane of physical tasks. Does it take you out of yourself somehow?	
liz	That's what I'm wondering. So that's what I wanted to ask you. When you're doing the stuff that people would say is boring and would love not to do in a way, like the washing up, what's your mind doing? 	
rob	I enjoy giving my mind a little bit of time off, not that anything particularly fascinating goes around my head, it's usually just football and beer, but there are moments when yeah, I mean to be honest with you because my disability tends to be visual I actually find, to be honest... it works slightly differently because I am able to do quite a lot of physical things, but turning my brain off by watching Eastenders is by far and away the most effective thing I could possibly do; four times a week half an hour of absolute brain cheddar, it's absolutely superb. 	
liz	And Coronation Street?	
rob	No not Corrie. 	
liz	No you've got your limits. 	
rob	If you've got room for more than one soap opera in your life you've got a problem as far as I'm concerned. The maximum soap opera allowance is one. It doesn't matter how disabled you are or how much you stay at home just one soap opera. 	
liz	I just know people are going to write in about that. 	
rob	And make it a good one not Doctors. This is the thing does this not drive you a bit bonkers that you can't do anything physical even washing up a tea tray?	
liz	It's not the not being able to do the physical stuff it's more that when I am kind of relaxing, I'm often doing it and there's a stimulus to it so I'm in front of the internet or I'm in front of the computer, or I'm in front of the TV because you've still got stuff, stimulation happening, do you know what I mean? And I just think I've got a lot of activity going on there. But maybe I'm just going a bit, you know, bonkers.	
rob	Is there one physical activity in particular, I don't mean you know climbing Machu Picchu, I mean just an everyday physical activity that you would love to do but have never done because you can't? 	
liz	There's isn't something like a... 	
rob	Do you know what I'd like to do? 	
liz	Go on. 	
rob	I'd like to effectively and efficiently and with aplomb mow a lawn. 	
liz	Would you really?	
rob	I would love to be able to mow a lawn well. 	
liz	With the lines?	
liz	Yes and get it really, you know, really OCD level perfection. 	
liz	Yeah. 	
rob	That's what I would like to do. 	
liz	And you couldn't do that. 	
rob	in my mind mowing the lawn. It's not something a visually impaired person can do well. 	
liz	It would probably be something like painting a room. 	
rob	Okay. 	
liz	Like domestic stuff like that. I think that would be great. I think the sense of achievement of going round a room and seeing it. And I know like you could do stuff at your level and you'd get an especially adapted roller.	
rob	Aren't they available? 	
liz	Oh they probably are.	
rob	They need to be invented if not. 	
liz	But sometimes it's like you could probably do it with that many adaptations but you couldn't be bothered. 	
rob	You'd feel like you were cheating really, you want to do it normally. But I'm thinking is this also a little bit of nostalgia because I've been told that you do actually have certificates for gymnastics and things like that. 	
liz	Oh man!	
rob	There must have been a time when you were maybe a little bit more able to do these kind of things than you are now.	
liz	I think that maybe it's about finding a sport or some kind of activity that I should do, because you are right I was looking through my photo albums from when I was a child and I have two certificates on cardboard, pink cardboard, and one is gymnastics level one, which I love, I'm proud of that. And my other was first place, it was top class of the juniors and it was for the wheelbarrow race. 	
rob	They give out certificates for wheelbarrow races?	
liz	Yes.	
rob	Were you in the wheelbarrow and someone was pushing you? 	
liz	I was the one on the floor. 	
rob	I see. 	
liz	Which I probably would be now and I just think from wheelbarrow to wheelchair user... you see that? It's my autobiography... 	
rob	It's essentially written. 	
liz	... I've got it already! Maybe that's it I'm going to try and find a sport. I think maybe shooting, I think I'd be quite good at that if I could lift the gun. 	
rob	Did I tell you my shooting story? I was, a few years ago, when I worked for Lad's Mags I went to the Falkland Islands of all places, and the soldiers I was with refused to believe I was as visually impaired as I said I was, and they put me out on a firing range in the middle of the Falklands and let me fire a shotgun. And I miss-hit, because I was shivering because it was minus fifteen, and I miss-hit so badly I blew a hole in the door of a jeep which had a kind of 90 degree angle to the board. 	
liz	If you were older I'd say, "And that's how the Falklands War began"	
rob	Started yeah. 	
liz	Who knew?	
rob	Galtieri didn’t like it. 	
liz	You know who we've got on the line, we've got Tony Garrett haven't we. Hello Tony.	
Tony	Hello there. 	
liz	From Abu Dubai is that right? 	
tony	Correct. 	
liz	We were talking sport here so we thought we'd better bring you in to keep us up to date with what's happening with the Paralympics. 	
tony	Absolutely. Start of the year there's lots going on in the Paralympic year. The draw for the wheelchair basketball which is going to be one of the big highlights of 2012 games has just been drawn. And GB men have got a good draw, we would be hoping they would get a medal. They've got Canada who really probably are the top team at the Paralympics. Germany, Poland, Japan and Colombia so GB men unless they make some major errors should get out of that group and get into the full knockout stages. However, the women, who we've got high hopes of, have a really tough group. They've got Australia, Canada, Netherlands and Brazil so they're going to be up against it. 	
liz	Things are doing quite well for sailing I see. 	
tony	We didn't get any medals at the Beijing Paralympics but we're very confident we're going to get a medal this time round. And our British pair of Alexander Rickham and Niki Birrell have just won gold in the world sailing championships in America. They've got off to a really good start and also we've got a bronze from one of our other competitions. But our sailors, which obviously the sailing's going to be down in Weymouth, are looking very good and looking very confident of some medals come 2012 Paralympics. 	
rob	And we've also got some slightly less positive news haven't we about Megan Pascoe is that right? 	
tony	Yeah absolutely. Yeah poor Megan she's had a nasty sort of fall just before Christmas and as a result had a seizure... 	
rob	She was definitely going to be a member of Team GB. 	
tony	Yeah absolutely. Unfortunately having a seizure and obviously sailing is a very risky business and unfortunately her Paralympic dream is over. 	
liz	So what have we got coming up in the next few months then? 	
tony	Well coming within the next couple of months is one of the big events it's the world track cycling championships which takes place in Los Angeles between the 9th and the 12th of February. And track cycling Great Britain are number one in the world and this will be the last time that our cyclists get a chance to get qualification points and prove how good they are. We've got 14 riders competing in LA. 	
liz	So will this decide who's going to go to the Paralympics?	
TONY	Pretty much so, pretty much so. I mean we've got six Paralympic champions in the team including Sarah Storey, Jody Cundy, Darren Kenny, Aileen McGlynn, so there's 14 riders, and it really will be that if the last opportunity for our cyclists to perform and make sure they get qualifying places for the games. 	
rob	And you're going to like this, Tony, because in one of the most seamless segs we've ever done on the Ouch podcast we actually have on the line right now none other than Jody Cundy. Hello Jody.	
Jody	Good evening. 	
rob	How are you going? 	
jody	I'm very well thank you very much. 	
rob	So how are preps, preps, preparations whatever you want to call it how are they going for London? 	
jody	Everything's good well within the whole team actually we're all performing really well, we've had a really good couple of weeks in Newport on a preparation camp for LA. And we fly out to Los Angeles next week and get ready for the World Championships. So yeah everything's looking good at the moment and, fingers crossed, that will all continue on until London.	
rob	And the things that screams off the page for me when I read about your rather glittering career is that you've changed sports and won a garland of medals in both. So you've changed from swimming to cycling and it seems to be you're not alone in doing that why do so many Paralympians change sports do you think? 	
jody	For me it was just a case of I'd got towards the end of my swimming career and I got to try the cycling out, and ended up being even more naturally talented on a bike than I was in a swimming pool, so it was a seamless transition and I made that move. But I think for other athletes it's more of the same it's like you don't actually find the event that you're most suited at. The other one I can think of is Sarah Storey who did it the year before I did. She transferred from the swimming team to the cycling team and just like me she's more at home on a bike than she was in the water. 	
liz	And you're now the world's fastest Paralympic cyclist. 	
jody	Officially yeah. 	
liz	Wow that's quite impressive. So aren't you good enough to be in the regular Olympics? 	
jody	I would love to think I would be good enough to be in the regular Olympics. Unfortunately I'm competing against the able-bodied team from GB which happened to be the strongest team in the world and have the biggest strength and depth. So I think if I was probably from a smaller nation I could possibly be in an Olympic team but... 	
rob	You've got to be digging out some Liechtenstein ancestors.	
jody	Indeed, indeed if I wanted to make an Olympic team. But then I don't know whether we'd have the same support as the British cycling set up. So the fact that I'm part of that and I do as well as I do is great. But I think it's going to take a little bit more hard work to even get onto the same page as the Chris Hoys and Jason Kennys of the world. 	
liz	But you do train with the Olympic team is that right you all train together? 	
jody	That's right yeah. The sessions we do on the track in Velodrome in the afternoons and stuff are with the Olympic squad so we often warm up in the same line. We share the same track time and do all our efforts in and around it so it's a great place to be and I can't think of any other place other than probably being in a rowing eight where there's so may Olympic champions in one place. And then we've got all the Paralympic champions on top of that as well. So it's quite a haven of success at the Velodrome. 	
rob	And I read that... 	
tony	Jody, it's Tony Garrett here. 	
jody	Hey Tony. 	
tony	It must give you tremendous encouragement, you and the squad, when you're actually there alongside the likes of Chris Hoy and company when you're training and just gives you that extra buzz to make sure you achieve what you need to do. 	
jody	Exactly. You're seeing the very best in the world doing what they do best then the only thing you can do is really follow their example and either lead or to be like them. So to have so many successful people who are at the very top of their game like it just inspires greatness. And the guys that I train with I'm constantly aiming for like the academy guys, which are the junior guys that are chasing Chris and Jason and everybody else on the very top ranks, so there's this constant chasing and staying ahead of each other. So I chase the academy guys. The academy guys are trying to stay ahead. They're trying to chase Chris and Jason. And Jason and Chris are trying to stay ahead of everybody else so there's this constant evolution and constant pushing of each other to achieve greatness and it's a fantastic place to live and train really. 	
tony	One final question from me; obviously you've got a few events in Los Angeles what's going to be your best event, what are you really looking forward to out there? 	
jody	Well the event that I've kind of sort of gone famous for is the kilo and that's my true love. I mean it's four laps of the track, it's over and done within 65 seconds, it causes a lot of pain but it is kind of a race of truth against the clock. And that will be the one that I'll be aiming to retain my world title in. But we've also got the team sprint and I've also got the 4k pursuit which was a surprise event that I did last year at the World Championships and came away with a silver medal. So to try and improve on that would be a great set up going into London. 	
rob	That's a great headline isn't it 'Race of Truth Against the Clock'. 	
jody	Indeed.	
rob	I really like that. And just finally from me, Jody, I'm slightly intrigued about your awesome prosthetic foot which I believe has been made by the same people who made the foot for a certain well known South African? 	
jody	That's right yeah Ossur make my legs and I came to them just before Beijing asking if they'd do a cycling prosthesis for me and they thought it was a great little project. So they made me a specific cycling blade, so called, to ride on in Beijing and it's been the leg that I've used since then. It's brought me great success. It's nice and lightweight, very aerodynamic and it'll be the leg that I wear in Los Angeles in the coming month. But post that we actually have a new leg kind of on the line so we're currently testing and trying to perfect the next leg that hopefully I'll be wearing in London. 	
liz	And, Jody, just before we let you go, what does it mean to you to win gold on home territory?	
jody	Absolutely everything. I mean it's amazing to be part of a GB squad in anything we do. To be an Olympian or Paralympian that's kind of something pretty special and something all athletes aspire to be. To have that opportunity to do it on home soil the numbers get smaller and smaller the amount that actually get to do it. And to be kind of in the prime of your career where you could possibly come away standing on the podium and even standing on top of the podium in front of a home crowd with the National Anthem playing that's something to behold, and something that gets you excited and hopefully gets you out of bed when you can look out the window and it's chucking it down with rain and you know that that's what motivates you to get on and train and make sure that you can make these dreams come true. 	
rob	Well the very, very best of luck from all of us, and hopefully we will speak again before June. Let's go back to Tony just for a second for the latest on ticket sales for anyone who's interested.	
tony	6th of February is the next closing date, the 6th of February Paralympic ticket sales a lot of the... quite a few of the top sports like wheelchair rugby and basketball and swimming and the track cycling, most of the tickets are all but sold out. But I discovered last week when I was trying to get some tickets there's still some tickets for the opening ceremony. None of the wheelchair tickets but there are still tickets for the opening ceremony, athletics so you're still get chance to see Oscar and David Weir. And there's still a lot of demand for day passes so quite a lot of Paralympic tickets still for sale out there but it has been unprecedented the ticket sales so far. Lots to look forward to as we move through 2012. 	
liz	Well as ever, thank you, Tony, a font of all Paralympic sport knowledge. Thank you so much. And, Jody, best of luck. 	
joDy	Thank you. 	
rob	[Jingle: 
Rob:	People often ask me, "Rob, why is Ouch a podcast 	and not on the normal radio?" I always tell them that 	podcasts are special, they're niche, they're authentic; 	they're about talking on a level with an audience you 	understand and who understands you. And since when 	was radio normal anyway I say. You name me one 	normal person on the radio, go on, go on try. 
Liz: 	Rob, you want to be on the radio don't you? 
Rob: 	Yes please, Liz.]	
liz	Blind TV producer and disability commentator, Kevin Mulhern has joined us for a look at this month's disability news stories. Hello Kevin. 	
kevin	Hi there. 	
liz	Are you well? 	
kevin	Yes I am. I must admit the newspapers don't make the best reading do they? 	
rob	Well no they don't. And it has been a very busy month and so I think we really just need to crack on with the welfare reform and reactions to the proposed changes in benefits straight away. But there's also a slightly tenuous international link to this as well from Ireland so shall we start with that one?	
kevin	Yeah I mean The Irish Times ran this story which basically there's been a survey in Ireland towards attitudes to disabled people and the overall headline was that attitudes are hardening. And, by and large, what it means is nobody really wants disabled children to go to school with their children and nobody really thinks we should be reproducing - what a surprise! What shocked me about this report was why are people still asking this kind of question? I don't believe that anybody would go out about any other minorities and say, "Do you think they should reproduce? Do you want one of them going to school with you?" I mean I, for example, have got these really deeply prejudicial views, for example, I don't believe that cyclists should be allowed out. I think children should be sedated in the supermarkets and they don't get on my nerves. 	
rob	But you draw the line at disabled people being sterilised? 	
kevin	Well exactly I do. But the point being is nobody ever comes and asks us these kinds of things. Have you been ever been asked a question about the able-bodied? "Do you think they should be allowed to wear too many shoes?" No you don't do it. But the other thing that shocked me about the report was not so much what non-disabled people were saying but more what disabled people were saying themselves. And I mean, for example, only one in five disabled people claimed that they had found prejudice or difficulties at work. Now I find that extraordinary because over the years most disabled people I've met, if they've managed to get a job, the problem has then been they've been utterly under employed and they're ten times better than everybody above them. I know that's a generalisation but I do think it is true. And I'm wondering whether the real fear now is that disabled people are now thinking they should shut up and not cause trouble. I don't really have problems, everything's fine and you're all marvellous people. That's what really worries me. 	
liz	So at least I've got work kind of thing. 	
kevin	Yes.	
rob	Absolutely. And I suppose this level of prejudice is in some ways possibly, I mean I don't know, I can go to you for this - part of the general support for the general cuts that are going to be happening and the replacement of DLA with PIP and... Is there much support for this? 	
kevin	I think you see there's been a great softening up. Because if you look at, forget this month, but go for any month but, for example, the one this month was a man in Burnley who used to work for the Department of Works and Pensions - isn't that ironic - who was prosecuted for fraud. Now my point about this, not his particular case so although they fired him and how he has to live on benefits; they took away the £50 and give him £102 a week now to live on benefits. But basically every week that has gone on you've heard more and more stories about disability benefit fraud and I think people have been softened up. And I think people are feeling quite hard towards... they're very suspicious about disability and disability benefits. And against that background you've got these reforms going on. 	
liz	Do you think there are some legitimate reasons for bringing in some of the reforms?	
kevin	No. To be absolutely honest I don't, and I'll tell you why I don't and it is because DLA is basically a very good benefit. It actually says if you've got a disability, either a mobility disability or a care need, then you get this benefit as of right, it doesn't matter how much you earn, whether you're in work/out of work this is an equalising benefit and people fought very hard for it. 	
liz	Okay and what are they saying that might change then? 	
kevin	What they're saying is they want to introduce a new benefit called PIP and under PIP - it's Personal Independent Payment. 	
liz	Okay. 	
kevin	You get reassessed for that and you know you said about the government - both sides want this by the way - Miriam Miller points out that all the research she's working on was provided to her by the last government. So it's not party political... 	
liz	It's all parties. 	
kevin	Get this clear - it doesn't matter what they say they're all for it. And the problem with this one is it's going to be a medicalised benefit you're going to have doctors making sure that everything's right and there's going to be no self assessment. Here is my problem with it; we don't even know what the rules of new benefit is going to be, how can you bring it in next year? Let's stop, look at how we're going to assess people's needs, let's do a trial period. And they said, "No, no it'll all be fine by next year" but we don't know how it's going to work. So that's why I don't think there's any reason at all to get rid of DLA and everything they're saying they've said it before. You know if there is fraud I want to know about it. I'm not for fraud. And frankly I don't know why they don't employ more disabled people inside the Department of Works and Pensions to do these assessments because I'd know a fraud if I met one. You'd know a fraud if you met one. But it's not about fraud. 	
liz	Maybe we'd be the worst wouldn't we, the worst adjudicators. 	
rob	I'd like to say, you know, if you're pointing at me at the moment... 	
liz	I'm just saying, albino boy, I'm just saying you know.	
kevin	But one of the things I think we've all got to watch is the language and some of the things which are being said. Because if you've noticed there's this language - 'the most deserving', 'people who really need it' - the whole thing about DLA is it's not means tested. I am really concerned and this is after sort of doing this for nearly 40 years - I am really concerned that we're getting back to those days when well if you need it you should get it and it's that new definition of 'need'. 	
liz	Okay. So that's clarified something that sounds ((unclarifyable - sic)) at the moment it's confusing at the moment yeah? 	
kevin	The PIP thing is very confusing at the moment. 	
liz	Okay. So we'll keep watching that. What other news has caught your eye?	
rob	Something a little less defuse. 	
kevin	Have you noticed easyJet - oh I love easyJet. EasyJet were taken to court I read on one day by the French Government who said you are so badly behaved towards disabled people, found them guilty of discrimination and said we're coming after you. I thought that'll teach them. Daily Mail the following day, a man in Britain asked to get off the jet. Now this is one of those fascinating... these low cost airlines say it's all about safety, it's not about profits, it's not about speed, it's just about safety. 	
liz	Health and safety again.	
kevin	I don't believe it. I just don't believe this for half a second because one of the things that comes through from the people who've been on the planes when they've been tossed off the planes they all say the staff are so aggressive, they're very rude, they don't want them to be there. And I often wonder whether some of the budget airlines are going round actually doing courses on how to be rude to disabled people. But it is the most bizarre thing. I mean I fly a lot and let me tell you I don't want to cause anybody to die in an air crash. I mean if a plane goes down I want to be sitting next to a marine who can open the door with his teeth and throw me out. 	
liz	Enough of your fantasies, Kevin. But if easyJet if any of the budget airlines or any airlines, because this happens across the board in fact, we just start to hear them about one particular airline, but they're quite common these stories - why don't they just say, "Yeah but to keep prices low we've got a quick turnaround, we have no room for error here and we have to make these snap judgements".	
kevin	No I don't. I do honestly think this is something which is creeping in. And what they're managing to do is always bring it to Health & Safety. They always say to the public this is really about your safety, we have to get everybody off the plane in an emergency in 90 seconds. Hm I have my doubts about that one. But I think it is really a question of let's get the rules written down because the reason why it is so prejudicial is they can see I'm blind, they can see you're in a wheelchair, but if you've got somebody say with a heart condition or prone to panic there's no certificate you ask for. "Are you prone to panic? If so, don't sit anywhere near a door." This comes back every so often it was around years ago. But it just seems odd that it's the determination, the bad publicity, the fact they're willing to get fined, but they're willing to persevere with it and I do think it's getting worse. 	
liz	Yeah. 	
kevin	And maybe you need more staff on the planes to help them be evacuated. But that's what we're against now the whole idea that will put up the cost. I mean I would like one member of staff per passenger oh I hate flying, I've got to be honest, it terrifies me. 	
rob	Our final story; some breakthrough news about eyesight restoration.	
liz	You could be cured, Kevin, I hear.	
kevin	Actually you may joke about this but I was actually talked to about this. This is the latest thing in genetic research and implants and there's a chap up in Yorkshire, a very nice man Mr Hilton, who's actually been given 'the first treatment in Europe'. Now is it my imagination or do we always hear about the first treatment in... I seem to have heard this story before. And I don't know how real these stories are. What worries me is The Yorkshire Post when they ran this story, they talked about him reading to his child and driving his car. I mean I hope that happens for him. But when you read down the story the experiments in America talk about people reading a couple of extra of lines on the chart. It's the enthusiasm with which the press grab cure stories. And of course needless to say he's a victim of blindness in The Yorkshire Post story. 	
rob	Oh the poor victims don't you want to pat them on the head and put sugar in their tea. 	
kevin	It does seem to crop up it's a new breakthrough but you never seem to meet anybody who comes up to you and says you are good. Although I was asked about this treatment, I was one of the characters who was sort of suitable but I was too old. 	
rob	We've never had a news section so laden with conspiracy theories. All plane companies are secretly trying to get disabled people never to fly again. And most eyesight restoration surgeries are bogus. 	
kevin	Yes I'm afraid... and I don't believe anybody did go to the moon. 	
liz	What a joy! Kevin, thank you so much for this month's news.	
rob	Thank you, that was really fantastic, thank you. 	
liz	[Jingle: 
Liz:	There wouldn't be an Ouch Talk Show without you, the listener.
Rob: 	Yes you guys are our inspiration. We love you. 
Liz:	So whether there's something you think we should be 	talking about, a comment you're itching to make on a 	previous discussion or if you have an inexplicable 	urge to play one of our quizzes
Rob:	Then drop us a line at ouch@bbc.co.uk]	
liz	With us in the studio I'm delighted to introduce the incomparable, Ruby Wax. 	
rob	Hello Ruby. 	
ruby	Hi, hello. 	
rob	Originally from the US Ruby's lived in Britain since the 1970s where she enjoyed a varied and successful career as a writer for television, and has been the star of a string of comedy and talk shows stretching from the '80s right up to today. And notably Ruby was also the script editor on Absolutely Fabulous. 	
liz	Now since 2009 Ruby's been something of a poster girl for open and positive mental health debate and discussion. Her two woman comedy stage show with Judith Owen about mental health, Losing It, finished late last year with an extended run at the West End. And recently Ruby has launched Black Dog Tribe a social networking site for people with a mental health problem. Welcome, welcome. 	
ruby	Thank you. I love hearing about me. 	
Liz	Me, me, me.	
Ruby	We could just go on and on.	
liz	But have your introductions become a bit more different, a bit more serious now? 	
ruby	Oh yeah. No people used to say as if I wouldn't be insulted, they'd go, "And here's the very obnoxious American" and I'd think I mean spit in my face. 	
rob	You're getting the sympathy vote a bit more now. 	
ruby	I had to peel myself off the floor to take that one. They were really nice. 	
liz	But you get very introductions now that you're more openly discussing mental health stuff. 	
ruby	Well they never said, "And here she is she's also mentally ill." But I'd rather you know that I'm mentally ill than my age if I had to trade them. 	
liz	I was going to say do you wish they would just come out and say it?	
ruby	In a way, in another way it would send me back into mental illness, very quickly.  	
liz	When did you make the decision to come out as somebody with mental health problems, what was the kind of catalyst for that? 	
ruby	I don't think I would have come out except for Comic Relief were doing... part of their campaign money goes to mental health charities. So they said would I pose for a picture. And I always think they make every person come in who's ever been on TV I thought I'd end up like in the back of a shoebox. But I went into the tube station and there was my picture looking like a Lithuanian peasant and it said I have mental illness or something about me having dandruff and mental... it was like hideous. So I threw myself on the poster and then there was another one and another one. By the time I got downstairs I thought let's make something out of this because I knew that I was the poster girl.  	
rob	This is interesting the fact that you're someone very much in the public eye who does suffer from depression, do you think that you're depression would have taken a different form or maybe even not existed at all if you weren't someone in the public eye?	
ruby	You've got to stop saying stuff like this. 	
rob	Why?	
ruby	You really do because if it's one in four people in the world, you know what I mean let's think about that, that's almost as bad as saying loud and brash you know what I mean? I'm not saying you're doing it on purpose. But... 	
rob	Well let me phrase it differently then. I mean did your fame have any role... 	
ruby	Nothing. 	
rob	... in your depression.	
ruby	No. Nothing. 	
rob	Nothing.	
ruby	You know you've got... depression is not caused by fame. People don't hang themselves because they had a TV show on BBC4, they don't care. There's like women up in Scunthorpe or whatever sitting with their kids, you know five kids, quaking in a room because she's so sick. And maybe celebrity's given this disease a bad rap. Because, for some reason, people think oh you know you have to have like... you either go to Jamaica or have a mental breakdown. This is really feeding the stigma. This is like laughing at somebody with cancer and saying, "Come on do some Scottish dancing." 	
liz	So it's one of the myths basically?	
ruby	It's a total myth what does it have to do with being a celebrity? If you're really mentally ill you couldn't be a celebrity. You've got to appear on TV. People on the verge of a nervous breakdown aren't really, you know, it's not a pleasing gig to watch. 	
liz	Now you've got Black Dog Tribe coming out.	
ruby	blackdogtribe.com.	
liz	Dot com okay brilliant. And what made you decide to set that up?	
ruby	I didn't actually again decide it. During my show Losing It which we've been touring for three years in mental charity institutions, we played toilets and buffet counters all shapes and sizes.	
liz	So this is your show with... 	
ruby	My baby with Judith Owen, the wonderful singer. And we eventually took it to the West End and everywhere we played even if it was a mental institution in the second half the audience would get to speak. And from the West End to those institutions wherever we went we could never shut them up. Because I sort of peel my mental skin off, I think that's where they think oh well now we can. So we have guys shouting from the balcony going, "I've been on medication for 20 years I never told my wife" and she's sitting next to him. We started opening the doors of the theatres in the afternoon for free, we'd let the public in and then Marjorie Wallace from SANE brought in her army of volunteers and so people could go and ask, "Where do I go for help?" Because a) they're too ashamed to come out of their house; and b) where do you go for help? Are you going to ask the GP again for some pills? And he's going to give you CBT for six sessions. So she took everybody under her wing. We got in great speakers. I filmed all those speakers and then a woman came and backed blackdogtribe.com where you can go on and like on Facebook meet exactly who's in your situation because that's when it really feels good. And it could be kids who are bullied. It could be people who are being picked on at work. It could be somebody who's just curious and says, "I've got a friend and they don't even know something's wrong". Or you're just backing the stigma thing, you know, you think it's enough now okay the gays have come out, this is the last frontier I want to just support this and let's work with the stigma, they would come to this tribe. 	
liz	So blackdogtribe.com what are you hoping that will achieve, what's on the site? 	
ruby	First of all it's the meeting place where you can find your people. Because I think on Facebook you know there's so much shame connected to this. Then we have videos of great Camilla batmanghelidjh great speakers, Peter Fornagy so if you want to know about drugs or you want to know what therapies do with a push of a little button you can find them because I can't read stuff when I'm sick. I can't even read a menu. So you push a button and you get instant advice. And other buttons for emergencies that send you right away to where you can call. So it's really easy to navigate. And then they'll be shows where I'll interview Stephen Fry or Alistair Campbell so you'll see like TV interactive shows. And then we have lots of films of people like you with audience's permission when mothers go, "Oh my God did I pass it to my daughter?" We have clusters of those type of people and we said can we film you. So when you watch that you'll go, "Oh there's somebody like me". 	
liz	I'm not the only one. 	
ruby	I'm not the only one. The relief of it. You know you'd watch people leaving the theatre in 20s and 30s they had found their people. 	
liz	I saw your show last year down in the West End and I was amazed at the second half and the honesty of people. 	
ruby	I know. 	
liz	I mean your honesty is quite formidable anyway because you're very much, as you say, you're unpeeling who you are, it's very open and very raw I thought. And I think that allows people in the second half to come out and kind of go, as you say, "This is happening to me" or I know someone. Did you feel like a responsibility because people knew you and your name to kind of help move and make things change and improve things for people?	
ruby	I didn't know there was going to be that kind of need but once you start opening doors and saying anybody we'll help we were loading up that theatre, it's sort of pathetic. You think we're at this stage in civilisation and people are crawling into a theatre to go, "I can't get anybody in the National Health Service to see me. I've been sick for three years" 16 year olds weeping. So I didn't take it upon myself, I brought in Marjorie Wallace who's a real pioneer and I would say, "You're coming on Wednesday, Marjorie, take her" I was the conduit I just pointed my finger. And now I think the website where there's so much shame you're not coming out of your house, but even if you can't get out of bed, which was my problem, you can come on anonymously. And even if you just lift your finger to meet somebody else who's in the same situation you will feel better.	
rob	So you're striking me as someone whose synapses are consistently ablaze, and Liz and I were talking about relaxing earlier so how do you unwind personally? Do you have any zone out moments that you try and achieve where you can turn your brain off for a moment?	
ruby	I do mindfulness everyday because I'm studying it. And I think that... 	
rob	This is the sort of agnostic yoga is it, is that what it is? 	
ruby	No. 	
rob	No?	
ruby	That's a funny way to say it. No it's actually training the brain to self regulate so that especially for those of us who have an illness you don't want that cortisol swamping you. So you can hear the little pitter-patter before it starts to... before the flooding starts. So I have a reason to do it. But everyone probably has their reasons.  	
liz	Because I was saying I live very much in my head. And I think a lot of people do in this society as well. 	
ruby	Sure because that's all we're taught. So this isn't yoga this is just a way... 	
liz	It's like a meditation is it kind of?	
ruby	But not eastern, so you're actually manipulating different parts of your brain with attention - intentional attention. So that you can learn to like... you can switch focus pretty quickly you know what I mean it's like a batter having just a quicker hand. So that if I ever feel incoming I'd know how to dodge it. It really is just tricks but you're exercising a muscle and that's what I need. 	
liz	blackdogtribe.com comes out the end of February.	
ruby	February 28th. 	
liz	28th brilliant. And what next for you?	
ruby	Then I do Losing It in Cape Town and then I have to finish my dissertation because I go to Oxford. And then I'm writing a book, the comedy version of the dissertation - go with me on this - and then also for Oxford I have to do another one woman show but this time it's about how your mind works. And all of it's due in September! I'll see you in The Priory boys and girls. Bye, bye! 	
liz	Not overloading yourself. 	
rob	So we have an infinitely more asinine task for you in the next five minutes.  	
ruby 	Oh I love this thing.	
rob	We play a quiz called Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable... 	
ruby	Couldn't be happier. 	
rob	... where we get a caller on the line and try to guess their disability. 	
ruby	This is fabulous.	
rob	So would you like to take part in the game?	
ruby	Yeah! Are you kidding? 	
rob	Fantastic. So shall we have the jingle please? 
[Jingle: Now it's time for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable.]	
liz	I was just saying Ruby is now holding her mouth and not shaking her head quite but... 	
ruby	No. I'm so happy you're as out there as I am. I'm so happy. 	
liz	Oh you've come home, Ruby, it's fine.	
ruby	I'm home, I'm with my people. 	
liz	It's time for our slightly questionable disability guessing game, Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable where we're going to get a caller on the line and try to work out what's wrong with them. 	
rob	And at the end of the phone line today is Cheryl. Is it Cheryl or Sheryl? Hello?	
ruby	She's deaf.	
Rob	Is it Cheryl or Sheryl?	
Sheryl	Sheryl. 	
rob	Sheryl. Hello Sheryl. Whereabouts are you calling us from? 	
sheryl	I'm in West Virginia.	
rob	Ah in West Virginia. 	
ruby	Oh my God!	
liz	West Virginia oh we're overrun by Americans. 	
rob	It's bonding time. 	
liz	I want to introduce you here to Ruby Wax, a comedian. 	
ruby	Hi. 	
sheryl	Hello, Ruby. 	
ruby	Hi. 	
liz	So it's not just the usual you've got three of us going to try this and try and find out what's wrong with you. 	
rob	Three of us inevitably losing.	
ruby	What kind of questions can we ask? 	
liz	Anything. 	
ruby	I can't believe.	
liz	You can't do it can you, you can't.	
ruby	Can I ask how old are you?	
sheryl	You can ask that.	
ruby	How old are you? 	
sheryl	Well I'm treated like five, I feel like 80 you can take your pick in between. 	
ruby	Okay but how old are you really? 	
liz	We haven't started yet, Ruby.	
ruby	Oh shoot. 	
liz	Actually, Ruby, would you read... 	
ruby	I'm over excited. 	
liz	... the rules for me?	
rob	I'm going to pass you over the script and if you would like to read the instructions for Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable as fast as you possibly can, Ruby, then we would be delighted. Off you go. 	
ruby	Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable is a clever disability interpretation of the parlour game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral. In the game the two hosts of the Ouch Talk Show have 90 seconds to guess what is wrong with the disabled caller on the line by asking a series of fiendishly intelligent questions. The caller must answer only ‘yes’ or ‘no’. It is both classic and therapeutic.	
liz	To take part in this intrusive and unpleasant game the rules clearly state that you have to be disabled. Sheryl, are you disabled?	
sheryl	Yes I am. 	
rob	The box is ticked. 	
liz	We have 90 seconds on the clock, Ruby, are you ready too? 	
ruby	Can I ask any question?	
liz	Yeah.	
rob	Oh please do.	
ruby	But she only answers yes or no? 	
liz	Absolutely. 	
ruby	Okay. Are you mobile?	
liz	Started now!	
ruby	Can you move around? 	
sheryl	Yes I can.	
ruby	Okay on what? Oh she can't answer that. 	
rob	Can you move around on your feet? 	
ruby	Yeah.	
sheryl	Yes.	
rob	You can, okay. What about can you take a bath unassisted?	
sheryl	Yes.	
liz	If we saw you would we know that you're disabled?	
sheryl	Yes.	
ruby	Are you very tiny? 	
sheryl	Yes.	
ruby	Okay. Are you tiny for your age? 	
sheryl	Yes.	
ruby	Okay. Have you got that thing you know the Benjamin Button had? You know where you 	
liz	Are you Benjamin Button?	
ruby	Are you Benjamin Button do you stay very tiny? 	
sheryl 	Yes I stay very tiny.	
ruby	Yes! Yes! 	
rob	Have you got dwarfism? 	
ruby	Are you a doll?	
liz	Are you a doll.	
rob	 Is it dwarfism that you have? 	
ruby	Have you got dwarfism? I never thought I'd be doing this. 	
sheryl	Is it one of the 20... sorry 200 types then yes.	
ruby	200 types do we have to guess the 200 types?	
LIZ	Is the main thing have we got to guess one of the 200? 	
ruby	I think that you're all in proportion but you're just like tiny. Are you bigger than six inches?	
sheryl	Yes.	
rob	Are you banned from the majority of adult rollercoasters?	
sheryl	Yes. 	
liz	Have you got a large head? 	
sheryl	No. 	
ruby	I'm right she's Benjamin Button.	
liz	She's one of those tiny ones.	
ruby	She's a teeny teeny. 	
liz	Are you under three foot? 	
sheryl	No. 	
liz	So you're not the smallest woman in the world? 	
sheryl	No. 	
ruby	No. Are you married? 	
sheryl	No. 	
liz	No. Have you got osteogena whatever? 	
ruby	Yeah.	
liz	Osteogenesis? 	
ruby	Did they flush her down the toilet? Where did she go? 	
liz	Sheryl, are you there? 	
sheryl	Yeah. 	
ruby	You're okay?	
sheryl	Yes.	
ruby	What have you got, Sheryl?	
sheryl	Bloom's Syndrome. 	
liz	Bloom's Syndrome and what does that mean? 	
rob	Bloom's Syndrome - what is this? 	
sheryl	It's ……  	
liz	Because it's such a bad line, Sheryl, I'm so sorry. So it's short stature and then what was the other bit? 	
sheryl	Propensity for infections and cancers.	
liz	Propensity for infections and cancers. 	
ruby	How old are you though? 	
sheryl	30.	
ruby	30 all right. But what would we notice... I'm sorry now you've let me go. 	
liz	No I love it. 	
ruby	Do you have antlers? 	
liz	Sheryl, I can only apologise. 	
ruby	What would we notice?	
liz	I never thought I'd apologise. 	
ruby	Please let me do this show every week. Every week!	
liz	Thank Sheryl. 	
rob	Ruby's launched a ….. on the Ouch podcast.	
ruby	Oh my God it's too good. Sheryl, what do you do? 	
sheryl	I educate people on disability rights issues. 	
ruby	Oh fabulous, there you go, Sheryl.	
liz	Fantastic. 	
SHERYL	I run a support group for people with Bloom's Syndrome - Bloom's Connect.	
rob	We are very privileged to have Sheryl on the show because there are only 170 people with Bloom's Syndrome in the whole world. 	
ruby	Get out! 	
liz	No! 	
ruby	Oh wow! Thank you. 	
rob	I know Ruby would and Liz and I would both... 	
ruby	I'm coming to West Virginia. 	
rob	... all like to talk about this a little bit more but the line is so awful we're going to have to, I think wrap this one up, but thank  you so much, Sheryl. 	
ruby	Thank you. 	
rob	You beat us in Vegetable, Vegetable or Vegetable. 	
liz	It's been a blast, thanks Sheryl. 	
ruby	Yeah. 	
rob	And also thank you...	
sheryl	Thank you. 	
rob	Thank you, Sheryl. And thank you also to Ruby Wax for joining us... 	
ruby	Oh thank you even more than Sheryl. 	
rob	... this afternoon. Let's do one more plug for blackdogtribe before you go. 	
ruby	blackdogtribe.com
[Jingle: 
Rob:	Liz, Liz...
Liz:	Hang on, let me just finish updating my status.
Rob:	But Liz we need to tell the Ouch listeners how to find 	us on these new fangled social networks.
Liz:	Wait! I'm just tagging you in my post.
Rob:	You can find, friend and follow on Twitter at bbcouch
Liz:	And on Facebook by liking our Ouch BBC fan page.
Rob:	But mostly we're on our blog bbc.co.uk/ouch.
Liz:	It was so mush simpler when we were at W12 8QT.
Rob:	You what?]	
Rob	On the line from Denver, Colorado is Kalyn Heffernan. Hi Kalyn.	
kalyn	Hello. 	
liz	Now Kalyn is the MC and front woman for the US hip-hop outfit Wheelchair Sports Camp - where did that fantastic band name come from? 	
rob	Wheelchairs Sports Camp what a name. 	
kalyn	So there is a real wheelchair sports camp out here in Denver and I was invited to attend it when I was a young kid and I've been going every year since. As a kid I was definitely too cool for the camp and I was a trouble starter and I'd bring all my able-bodied 'volunteer' friends and we'd end up just running amok. So when I was old enough to drive I started volunteering and the name just kind of stuck. 	
rob	So you didn't get barred from wheelchair sports camp then? 	
kalyn	No. 	
liz	No but you corrupted the place by the sounds of it. 	
kalyn	Yes definitely. 	
rob	So listen, maverick Heffernan, I hear you're also involved in the occupier movement as well. Tell me, very briefly, about that. 	
kalyn	I'm part of Occupy Denver. I started going around day five of our occupation and we're probably close to 200 days by now. And it's exciting, it's very discouraging, it's very you know a little bit of everything.	
liz	You're obviously quite political, Kalyn, does that feed into your music then?	
kalyn	Yes definitely. No matter how hard I try and not get political I'm sure it comes across in some way or another. 	
liz	And what's your style, what type of music?	
kalyn	Hip-hop mainly but because I work with these great musicians I guess we could call it hip-hop, jazz, soul, funk, blues sometimes R&B I think it crosses a lot of genres - experimental, independent.	
liz	And you're the MC?	
kalyn	I am and producer. 	
liz	Okay. Well we're going to hear one of your tracks at the end of the show so stay with us for that. But before that can we try some quick fire questions with you? Are you ready? 	
kalyn	I think so. 	
rob	And the answer you give us has to be immediate, the very first thing that comes into your head. 	
liz	Don't think about it too much. 	
rob	No pausing, no hesitation, no thinking. 	
liz	Okay let's go. The world would be a better place if...? 	
kalyn	If there were no politics. 	
rob	Picnic or dinner party? 	
kalyn	Picnic.	
liz	Radio or mp3 player?	
kalyn	Mp3.	
rob	Live on stage or recording in the studio?	
kalyn	Live.	
liz	My favourite - dogs or cats?	
kalyn	Ooh... 	
liz	It's a tough one.	
kalyn	Both. 	
rob	Manual or electric?	
kalyn	Electric.	
liz	London or Beijing?	
kalyn	London.	
rob	Romantic comedy or shoot 'em up?	
kalyn	Shoot 'em up. 	
liz	If I could duet with anyone it would be...? 	
kalyn	Thom Yorke. 	
rob	Customers who like Wheelchair Sports Camp also like...?	
kalyn	Tennis.	
liz	Customers who like Wheelchair Sports Camp, the band, also like...?	
kalyn	Graffiti.	
liz	Huh-ha. So people who are interested how can they find out more about you and the band? 	
kalyn	We have a website it will be dot com here soon but for now it's wheelchairsportscamp - all one word - dot.co and we're also on Facebook and Twitter.	
liz	All over the web.	
kalyn	I'm trying to delete our MySpace - we're everywhere.	
liz	Well you stay there, Kalyn, and thank you so much we're going to be back with you in a few seconds so you can introduce your track, but over to Rob for the closing credits. 	
rob	So thanks must go to the team; Linda Debrah, Damon Rose and the studio manager, Drew Lecky. The producer was Emma Tracey and we'll be back early next month. 	
liz	So goodbye everyone for this month and cue Kalyn. 	
kayln	So this is our track, I Smell Funk, I wrote it about audio engineering, because that's what I got my degree in, and I hope you like it. 
[Playing music]