Ouch Talk Show #91 August 2012
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Fraser and Liz Carr

liz	Thank you for downloading the November Ouch podcast. Surely the best thing about this cold and wintry month. 	
rob	And coming up on the show today US commentator Lawrence Carter-Long on disability and Hurricane Sandy. Plus comedian Steve Day and editor of Disability Now, Ian McCrae, provide their own unique spin on some of this month's biggest headlines including that rather shocking blind tasering story. 	
liz	Newsflash! Tablets help disabled people. No they do but listeners I'm referring to the touch screen computer variety rather than medication. We'll be finding out how devices like the iPad are making it easier for people with certain disabilities to learn, work and be creative. 	
rob	Oh and Zach Anner is our guest near the end of the show. Two years ago the then 25 year old Texan with cerebral palsy won a competition to host a travel programme on Oprah's new TV network, and now has his own road trip show on YouTube. He'll be filling us in on how he came to be on first name terms with Ms Winfrey in about 30 minutes time. 	
liz	So it's a hearty, winter warmer full of tasers, travel and technology. Hold on to your tartan blankets. 
[Jingle: From London it's Ouch disability talk from the BBC with Liz Carr and Rob Crossan.]	
rob	So speaking of tartan travel blankets... 	
liz	You know what they used to be a really bad idea and a cliché but now they're looking quite good and I have just ordered one. 	
rob	Oh yeah. 	
liz	Honestly I have. 	
rob	It's to cover your entire body in the winter from top to toe tartan snuggy. 	
liz	Well that one is a home version it's like a fleecy tartan...I really have in fact and they've shipped it from America so this is quite some tartan blanket right? 	
rob	People are going to start trying to have picnics on top of you. 	
liz	This is true. That could be quite good. I like that idea.	
rob	That'll keep you warm. 	
liz	Anything to keep... Winter for me is about putting like six coats on where I triple my body size, I go from having wrists that are like an inch to having sort of Michelin man arms.	
rob	It's not really Michelin man it's just the only time of the year where you look like you're of an average weight and build that's all.	
liz	Yeah it's true. Okay it's true.	
rob	I look like a Michelin man when I've been feeding up on winter pies and such like. 	
liz	This is true. Oh yes apparently other tyres are available, I can't just say Michelin man. 	
rob	Oh really? 	
liz	Even though I've said it again. 	
rob	Name one other tyre? You can't can you? 	
liz	Is Firestone a tyre? 	
rob	Yeah alright then fine. 	
liz	Sorry I keep going on about tyres. 	
rob	Again other tyres are available... 	
liz	It's not great listening I'll be honest. 	
rob	...though we can't think of any. The thing is with winter is that I don't really feel the cold that much but it means that if you're visually impaired it tends to be darker a lot longer. I don't think I'm really revealing anything too massive there. Here's an exclusive! 	
liz	BBC home page I think for that tomorrow. 	
rob	This is comedy gold isn't it? But I did have an experience because what I always do when I cross the road and I'm on my own is that I'll just find somebody else also crossing the road and then just shadow them across. 	
liz	Stalk them is what you're saying. 	
rob	Stalk them across. Yeah it's a nice stalking, it's a friendly stalking.	
liz	Right. 	
rob	They're helping me even though they don't really know it. 	
liz	They are your helper monkeys. 	
rob	I'd prefer not to refer to other members of the human race as monkeys or dogs they're civilised, noble, noble human beings who don't really know what they're doing but they are assisting me. It's like subterfuge it's assistance by stealth and it's free which I really enjoy. And what happened a few years ago was that it was very, very dark one winter's evening and I was crossing a very busy road in Brixton and I thought I'll do my usual trick shadow another guy and a bus, I'm not joking really did come within about three seconds of killing the both of us, we had to literally fly kind of action hero style on to the kerb both of us together. And I turned round and I said, "I was following you because I'm visually impaired" and he went, "Yeah well I'm blind, I was following you." So it was literally the blind leading the blind. So what I do now is I tend to look for level crossings. Yeah I learned by lesson the hard way I felt. But I imagine that you must look a bit like a crab when you're waddling sideways through elevator doors when you've got six layers on and it must take you hours to get ready.  	
liz	It takes me...	
rob	Because I've seen you even trying and get a bag round your hand and that takes about a day. 	
liz	I know. Well winter it's half an hour to get the coat on and then let's not even talk about gloves. I mean it takes days! The right one's alright, the left...	
rob	What about mittens? I know it's not very dignified. 	
liz	But then you look like you're about three. 	
rob	Anyway look, listen deaf comedian Steve Day and Ian McCrae the visually impaired editor of Disability Now are here with us. We love to put your disability before your names, you'll have noticed that. 	
liz	Just in case anybody isn't sure. 	
steve	Remind me who I am. 	
rob	Steve we did hear that you did a comedy course in a care home recently. 	
Steve	I did and it was absolutely brilliant. And I had the same level of cynicism that you're showing on your face at the moment but it was brilliant. Because there were people there in various stages of dementia but through comedy and specifically getting them to sing songs and stuff they came alive for that moment. We did an actual show and we worried that it wouldn't work and it would be awful. But the families of people in the care home who came to the show some were in tears, "That's my dad, that's my dad he came alive" after the show was finished it was back down to the way they were in a kind of cocoon of dementia. But it was one of the best...it was one of the things I least looked forward last year but turned out to be one of the best things I've ever done. The problem was though we do kind of rehearsals and then you come back the next week and people of that age and somebody would have died, you know one of your main stars from the show.	
rob	So you had to cast accordingly? 	
steve	Yes.	
liz	Ian, editor of Disability Now hello. 	
ian	A new website. 	
liz	Well I was going to say you've always been a paper version haven't you, paper newspaper, and now you've moved to an online publication, why did you make the change? 	
ian	We followed examples set by lots of other print... I'd realised last week, I just noticed last week, that even the Big Issue is going online now. So quite how that works being sold outside of underground stations and elsewhere I'm not sure. But basically it just got very expensive to run a print magazine. We weren't reaching enough people with the print magazine and we could obviously reach a lot more people via the web. And certainly following the first month's operation things are looking really good. 	
liz	Who does read Disability Now do you think? 	
ian	From the comments that we get and feedback we get it is very much disabled people and that's precisely what we want. I think back in the old days Disability Now was hardly read at all by disabled people, it was read a lot by kind of carers and family members and so forth because a lot of the content was about caring and having a disabled kid in your family. Now the content is absolutely on the money just like Ouch about disability and disabled people. 	
liz	Is it a bit of a guilty pleasure do you think? Because I have friends who certainly used to get the print version and you kind of go round to their house and you'd flick...you wouldn't buy it yourself but you'd look through, you know a bit naughty. 	
rob	A guilty pleasure – it's not porn. 	
liz	I'm just saying just to see the latest Disability News.	
rob	What a sheltered life you've led, Liz Carr. 	
steve	You flick through the small ads.	
rob	I almost feel a bit sad now. 	
liz	The ads were great I hope they... 	
ian	Oh the ads at the back. 	
liz	... still have them I do, I do. 	
steve	I like the scooter ads I think: oh I could have a go on one of those. 	
ian	We still have ads. 	
rob	Well we've thoroughly plugged the new online edition of Disability Now, we've covered that so let's move on to the news. First things first, we've got Colin Farmer, a 62 year old blind man from Lancashire who was mistakenly tasered by the local police force while walking down a street. Now I know Ian you've been following this story rather closely, can you take us through it? 	
ian	Yeah. I've not had a chance to speak to Mr Farmer but I've followed it closely through the news media. Basically he was on his way to the pub one darkening evening, on his way to the pub to meet some friends. He's previously had two strokes this guy, right two strokes and he's as you say, Rob, he's 62. He was walking along with his white cane and he described how he heard people behind him shouting at him. And he thought it was some local thugs, it was the word he used was thugs, but thugs or hooligans or whatever who meant him kind of harm and so he just started to say, "Look I'm blind, I'm blind." And then the next thing he knew he felt this tremendous shock as whatever 50,000 volts from a taser went through him. He obviously fell down as a result of the tasering. When he was on the floor a policeman jumped on him with his knees in his back and he still thought it was thugs and he was still absolutely terrified to death as well as having been stunned from the taser. It emerged that somebody had called the local police station in Chorley in Greater Manchester and had said there's a man going round the estate with a Samurai sword. So the bunch of bobbies on patrol clocked this guy, Mr Colin Farmer, and thought that what he had was a Samurai sword not a white cane. I have to say that it means us other blindies have been very careful about going out especially after the clocks went back and as you were saying earlier it got dark about showing our canes in the dark.  	
rob	But surely the policeman in question must have been visually impaired himself because you can't get a white stick and a Samurai sword confused, or can you? 	
ian	Well what went round on the social media like Facebook and Twitter were people were actually saying should have gone to Specsavers about the copper. I'm sure that he's had a tremendous ribbing in the canteen, "Oh look it's the guy who thought a blind man's stick was a Samurai sword." But actually you know it does raise...	
rob	I'm not sure if that's entirely the justice that Colin Farmer would be happy with. "Is he going to get sacked?" "No but they're all taking the mic in the canteen." 	
liz	Well we actually have the statement from Chief Superintendent Stewart Williams...	
rob	Do we? 	
liz	...from Lancashire Police, we do. And this is the official line is Lancashire Constabulary "deeply regrets what has happened. We've clearly put this man though a traumatic experience and we're extremely sorry for that. We've launched an urgent investigation to understand what lessons can be learnt and the matter's also been referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission." and they've taken his taser off him.	
rob	Oh that's like being neutered if you're a policeman isn't it? 	
liz	All of his power's gone. 	
rob	Both, you two, Steve and Ian I think you've both had incidences where you were misunderstood, shall we say, by the police. 	
Steve	Can we talk about the man though, the IPCC must be busy at the moment mustn't they, but anyway I think the shock about this story though it presupposes that blind people can't be Samurai warriors. I think that's discriminatory. I can just imagine somebody, expert in the art of sword wielding and also being visually impaired being able to do, I don't know, ice sculptures or something. 	
rob	If it's humanly possible I can see Damon and Emma making notes, our producers now, that we will have a visually impaired Samurai swordsman or woman on the show next month. 	
liz	Wasn't it a Paralympic sport anyway? 	
steve 	Exactly. Blind fencing. Although he did say, the man to his credit, he said, "I'm giving my stick to Lancashire Police because their needs obviously greater than mine" which I thought was great of him. 	
rob	Fantastic. 	
steve 	And the other thing is I mean he would have been straight on the phones to Claims Direct wouldn't he? He's probably going to be in 'I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here' they're always looking aren't they these days to kind of – can I say this – spas it up a bit. And something like that it's going to be a star I think he'll be a reality show star within six months. 	
liz	Spas it up or diversify is that the word you wanted to say? 	
steve	Diversify sorry that's what I meant, sorry. 	
rob	These are the times we live in I'm afraid. So what about your story then? 	
steve	Well the worst one I did a gig in Leicester and there were fifteen hundred people there, but biggest gig I'd ever done De Montfort Hall, and then I had to walk into the town of Leicester to do another show. And on the way back to the De Montfort Hall for the show biz after party I was stopped by the police and accused of smashing a window. I had nothing of the sort. The description was someone wearing a black leather jacket which was 95% of the male population at that time. And they would not believe my story that I hadn't smashed any windows. So much so that they were so insistent that I started to believe I might have done. I can see how the Birmingham Six confessed after seven days, after half an hour of being grilled by a policeman I was ready to confess to everything. And they said, "Where have you been then?" And I said, "I've been to De Montfort Hall I've been doing the Leicester Comedy Festival Gala Show" and they said, "Well who else was there?" I thought well there were fifteen hundred people I didn't get their names. They said, "Well you must know someone" so I said...and at this time I was working with Sarah Millican she wasn't a big named star then, they said, "Sarah who?" I said, "Sarah Millican." I heard the man, the policeman radioing "It's Millican" I don't know the phonetic alphabet it was like, foxtrot, alpha. So I've already dobbed in half of the comedy community into the police's...probably on a database somewhere 'Sarah Millican smashing window'. Anyway and then they strip searched me, it was freezing, it was the first week of January and they strip searched me. 	
liz	In the street?	
steve	In the streets of Leicester. I mean obviously it didn't cause that much of a commotion it's Leicester, but I was semi-naked it was freezing. And then they realised that it wasn't me. The deaf comedian window smashing genius that they thought it was and they just left me. The other police shot off in their patrol car to arrest somebody else, Sarah Millican probably, and I was left there. And another policeman came and asked me to fill in a form. I had to fill in a special disabled person having been arrested form to ask my ethnic background. And they said, "Are you African, are you..." all this malarkey and I said, "Can I fill this in after I've got dressed please?" 	
liz	So Ian what about you, you had a situation. 	
rob	Yeah you've got one too. 	
liz	You were misunderstood. 	
ian	The first one which is very short was I was once pulled up in Saltwell Park, Gateshead which is where I'm from, Gateshead that is, and I was accused of having exposed myself. I eventually managed to persuade them it wasn't me but we won't go into how I managed to do that. The other time was you wouldn't know to look at me now but I was a football hooligan. I was sent to school in a place that was about...it was a castle it was about eight miles outside of Shrewsbury going towards Welshpool, and it was an idea they had for kind of integrating disabled people into our own local community so they sent me 270 miles from home. And I used to go as often as I could to see Shrewsbury Town playing at the wonderfully named Gay Meadow, yeah it's fantastic, where the ball used to go over the stand and into the River Severn. And there's this mythical story that there was a guy in a corrical waiting the ball to come over. Anyway I went one week and it was a cup tie, I can't remember if it was the second or the third round, but it was Shrewsbury Town versus Hartlepool United. 	
steve	Probably the second round, Ian, if it was Shrewsbury Town. 	
ian	Well you never know. 	
rob	Come on this isn't 606!  	
ian	So I'm standing right at the front at the tech end at the Gay Meadow and this toilet roll landed in front of the wall in front of the pitch side wall in front of me and it hadn't unrolled. And I thought blimey this is too good a chance to miss. There were two things that I didn't know that I should have realised or been made aware of: one was that Hartlepool had just been awarded a penalty. I threw this toilet roll and it arced beautifully over the goal just as Hartlepool's penalty taker was running up to hit the ball, so it completely screwed up the penalty. The second thing that I didn't know that was exactly three feet to my right was a burly member of the Shropshire Constabulary who grabbed my anorak, we wore anoraks in those days do you remember, he grabbed my anorak cuff and twisted it and said, "Right you're coming with me." And he led me out and I went past all the Hartlepool fans they were all going, "Get in there bobby" and all that. And we had to go out through the players' tunnel and once we got out of the relative daylight into the darkness where the players' tunnel was I started to trip and shuffle and clear my throat a bit. And he said, "What's the matter with you are you blind or something?" And I said, "Well actually yes" and of course there's like three blind schools in the vicinity so he wasn't surprised. He said, "Well why the bloody hell didn't you tell me?" And he said, "I'm still going to have to take you out but I'll tell your mates where you are." So with a bit of luck there's still the odd copper like that around. 	
rob	It's a beautiful story that takes me back to an earlier era of when people did used to throw toilet roll on football pitches, plus an anorak. So much nostalgia there. 	
ian	Better than sharpened coins. 	
steve	It was a shame you didn't have a guide dog because then if it was a Labrador then Labrador and toilet rolls you can do what you want can't you basically they go together don't they? 	
rob	Elsewhere disabled people in the East coast of the USA have been coping with Hurricane Sandy or should I say super storm Sandy. It's left many people over there without power, water, phone or internet and we've got disability commentator Lawrence Carter-Long on the line from Washington DC right now. Hello Lawrence. 	
lawrence	Hello! How are you Ouch? 	
rob	We're very well. How are you? 	
lawrence	Doing well thanks. 	
rob	Now we've seen a lot on our TV news over here in the UK about loss of homes and power for many US citizens. What do we know so far of the problems people with disabilities are having? 	
lawrence	Well you're lucky because you've got your electricity. Millions in New York City don't. They were out of power for about five days. In parts of lower Manhattan the lights have just come back on. Transportation I'm told is a little bit better but it's still quite a mess. We've still got a lot of people who are stranded in cold, dark high-rises, people that are stuck in nursing homes, adult care facilities and worried right now about getting food, medicine and water. In the areas that the electricity isn't back on people are still concerned about getting their ventilators or their wheelchairs recharged. 	
liz	And one disabled couples' situation has got a lot of social media attention, Lawrence, can you tell us about that? 	
lawrence	Sure. That would be the story I think of Nick Dupuis and Alejandra Ospina and Nick and Alejandra I think really their case highlights stories that aren't as well known or aren't as well told. I think because Nick and Alejandra are really tapped into the disability community. Nick for his community organising in Alabama and for his web comics. And Alejandra for her organising there in New York City and her work with the geek girl internet community. They've got resources and they're able to tap into I think a vat of support and help that other people might not have. So they've really shown I think in their case how the community was disability led can pull together and has pulled together in the course of this story and in this emergency to really show how it can be done. We've had folks from across the United States be able to connect and offer support to them from New York to Boston to Colorado to California mobilising people on the ground that still had electricity, that had mobile access that were able to get teams together to actually get to Alejandra and Nick's apartment where they had no electricity, find ways to recharge the generators, to get generators so that Nick could use his ventilator. So that's been a real story I think of resilience that is sort of born out of disability that you don't often hear. 	
liz	They live 12 stories up in a high-rise, the lifts were out and Nick, as you just mentioned there, uses a ventilator. I mean what would the consequences be if you can't get the batteries, the electricity for a ventilator that you have to use on a daily basis where does that go for people, what happens? 	
lawrence	Well that's exactly...it goes exactly you know the default is death. I mean that's your option. When you ask what are my resources in an emergency the default answer tends to be call 911 or I guess it would be 999 there emergency services. But you have a problem there because what they want to do is they say, "Okay well let's transfer you to a hospital". Well they had a situation where the hospital nearest to Nick and Alejandra had their generator fail and all the premature babies had to be taken off the failed ventilators and bagged and removed from the hospital. They were taken out into the street in the middle of this hurricane, in the middle of this storm. So obviously moving someone who's ventilator dependent, who's on the 12th floor is not necessarily the best thing. So you've got to develop these strategies on how communities can support each other. 	
rob	Do you think Sandy has shown us that lessons have been learnt from Hurricane Katrina and Irene regarding disability access during these really quite scary times? 	
lawrence	I think from what we're hearing on the ground is that things have been better than they were during previous hurricanes and that relief organisations like the Federal Emergency Management Agency certainly grass roots organisations like Portlight Industries who have been providing support and providing funds and helping coordinate the efforts are more prepared and more on the ground and more connected than we were during Katrina so we're glad to see that. But I think that there's still problems and there's still gaps that need to be filled and still problems that need to be corrected. 	
liz	We actually saw quite publicly when we were watching what was happening over here Mayor Bloomberg's TV messages were signed, there was a sign language interpreter and also hearing that more than before there was some accessibility in storm shelters, and there hadn't been that. So things are slightly moving but there's still a lot to be done. 	
lawrence	Yeah they're moving forward. I think we're learning where the gaps are. What you mentioned the sign language interpreter that was brought about because Christina Currey who's one of the heads of an independent living centre there in New York, made a stink during the last Hurricane Irene that there were no sign language interpreters and if someone was deaf was watching the TV they wouldn't know what was going on. So this Lydia Callis is the name of Mayor Bloomberg sign language interpreter. She's become something of a pop culture rock star you know just Saturday nights...	
rob	Why is this? 	
lawrence	...just this past week Saturday Night Live which is a venerable comedy sketch show opened up doing a skit using a very animated actor, using Lydia Callis and the sign language interpretation as the main part of that skit 	
rob	Is she the first sexy sign interpreter on TV? 	
lawrence	In the United States yeah I think you might have  us beat.  	
rob	So you're saying she's a bit more gregarious and a bit more colourful and just animated than usual. 	
liz	Can I just...	
lawrence	Yeah the joke was and I think this was true that she added pizzazz to the press conferences. And if anybody's ever seen any of the press conferences from the Mayor of New York it's most definitely needed.  	
liz	Well, Lawrence, thanks so much for joining us something we very much wanted to cover, so thank you. Keep warm. Stay safe and we'll speak to you again on the show some time. 	
lawrence	Okay. All the best. 	
liz	Thank you. 	
steve	That makes me think though that the taser man was warned by the police, I know he didn't get the message and all that, if you're deaf what do you get? The police should learn to do stop or I'll shoot, or stop or I'll taser you for carrying a Samurai sword in sign language. I think they should. 	
liz	And I just needed to say there that obviously other sign language interpreters are available, not just frumpy ones. 	
rob	Can we name one? 	
steve	No university lecturers or something. 	
liz	Yes that's not fair. Look if you've got anything to add to our discussion you're listening to us then you can email us as usual on ouch@bbc.co.uk. 	
rob	Thank you very much Ian McCrae and Steve Day. 	
steve	Thank you. Thank for having us.	
ian	Thank you. 	
steve	Thank you. 
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability. I had years viewing my walk as I walked badly. Then I realised no this is the best I can walk, this is the best. And it really changed the way I felt and I kind of felt proud of myself. And the way I did things and I went they’re not bad they’re the way I do it. bbc.co.uk/ouch.]	
liz	Coming up...
[Playing music]
That's 'Is this Me?' by Australian learning disabled rock band Rudely Interrupted. Hear the track in full at the end of the show. 	
rob	Now five years ago personal touch screen devices were pretty much a thing of science fiction but now they seem to be everywhere and are being used for almost everything. Now often disabled people face across barriers when new technology comes along but it seems like it's been almost the opposite this time around. 	
liz	Smart phones and tablets are helping people disabled people to reach their potential at work, in education and while having fun. Even Mr Tumble, the makaton signing clown from 'Something Special' on Cbeebies has a tablet computer. 	
rob	What is makaton by the way, Liz, you know this don't you? 	
liz	It's a simplified sign language. 	
rob	Thank you. Good. Now to tell us more is accessible consultant and expert in accessible gaming, Ian Hamilton. Hello. 	
ian	Hello. 	
rob	So Ian when I hear about touch screen technology and things like that because I'm a complete luddite I tend to just fall asleep. I find it really difficult to feel how this can be relevant to me although I'm sure it is. So what about Mr Tumble then, tell me about him and why he has a tablet? 	
ian	Mr Tumble is on a Cbeebies programme called 'Something Special' which is aimed at all kids but in particular for children with learning disabilities. And the Tumble Tap is a tablet which is a new addition for the new series. So I assume you're probably not familiar with 'Something Special'? 	
rob	I would love to know more about it, yeah.	
ian	Cool. Okay. Well at the start of the programme he has his spotty bag and within the spotty bag he takes out a picture frame which contains an image of an object that they're going to talk about during that show. And for this series they replaced the picture frames with the tumble tap tablet. 	
rob	I see right. So hang on is this going to be something that kids in real life can actually have on their own iPads as well?	
ian	After a fashion yeah. So within the TV programme it's just literally that simple cause and effect if they hit it it shows the object. And online that's now been expanded into a full game. So towards the end of this month there's going to be the game called Tumble Tap Snap I think coming out. And that will allow children with a range of different disabilities to be able to play along. 	
rob	And what's interesting about this is that this show is not purely just aimed for children with special needs, this is for all kinds of children as well it's got mass appeal across disability and non disability audiences, right? 	
ian	Yeah absolutely it's universally loved. That's one of the strongest things about this show is that although it is designed specifically with these kind of developmental needs and abilities in mind it's also aimed to be as appealing as possible to all kids. So it's the same principle behind the games as well. So although they can be highly configured for even the most profoundly disabled young kids they're also just as fun and enjoyable for everybody. 	
liz	If I had it what would I be playing, what sort of things?	
ian	This particular new one it's called Tumble Tap Snap and it is a snap game, so you're matching objects. So you get the scene set so you might be, for example, helping Lord Tumble get dressed for his day out. 	
rob	Who's Lord Tumble? This is another member of the Tumble family?	
ian	He is yeah...	
rob	Who's done rather well... 	
ian	...he's got quite an extended family. 	
rob	... for himself. Yeah. 	
ian	Yeah so Lord Tumble, and Cool Tumble and Fisherman Tumble and all those kind of people. 	
liz	How do we know that Cool Tumble's cool? 	
ian	Because he's got a quiff and leather jacket. 	
liz	Of course! Of course he has, wow! Okay there's a whole new world here. What is it about touch screens then, why are they working for children and for young children with learning difficulties? What's the appeal here? 	
ian	These particular children who are, for example, on the autistic spectrum what they offer over traditional computers is the direct cause and effect. That's something that they found really strongly with filming the programme was just that simple thing of having a button with that immediate bigger reward was much more likely to encourage the kids to actually take that step of experimenting and interacting, which can be quite difficult for autistic kids in particular. 	
rob	But that's the cause and effect is having a very noticeable reward at every stage.	
ian	Yeah absolutely. 	
liz	So if I'm looking at a tablet computer and I see something that interests me it's a flower or a character, it's Mr Tumble or whatever and I like his shoe I can click on it or push it or point on it and something might happen. 	
ian	Yeah it's that immediate reaction. And it's also a lot simpler in terms of motor ability than using something like a mouse. So, for example, if you've got a mouse you look on the screen you have to calculate the distance between two points, translate that up and down movement into a back and forwards movement – all kinds of complicated stuff going on. So if you've got something that you can just put your finger directly on and manipulate on the spot then that's a lot simpler and straight forward. 	
liz	And you are mostly creating learning materials for disabled children. Do they take to it more quickly than disabled adults? 	
ian	Yeah I'd say it's not even specifically about children with disabilities it's just children in general, I mean it's so common. You can look in YouTube and see so many videos of one year olds who are using these devices so easily. And even taking it further so seeing kids who are actually now trying to swipe magazines and TVs and stuff just because it's just a natural, tactile interaction. 	
rob	Wow that's incredible! So they're actually holding a magazine but swiping it like an iPad to turn the page? 	
ian	Yeah, yeah so they're managing to turn the page but then they're getting frustrated when they see a picture in there and they're kind of rubbing their finger over the picture and nothing's happening. 	
rob	This is where we need to start bringing back 'scratch 'n' sniff' that would be the best...that makes me sound so old. 	
liz	I was happy with an Etch A Sketch do you know what I mean? It's not just people with learning difficulties who are getting a lot from all this technology though. Lee Ridley aka Lost Voice Guy is a Newcastle based comedian who has never been able to speak. He does his entire comedy act using a tablet computer. Well here's what he sounds like on stage. 
[Playing clip: You may be wondering why I chose to sound like a posh version of Robocop, let me demonstrate. I don't really want to sound like this. [Female voice] And I really, really didn't want to sound like this. ((German))]
So that's the man in action, Lee Ridley. Excellent. Well our reporter, Emma Tracey, met him before a London gig at the weekend and asked how he took to the technology that has led him into a career as a comic. 	
Lee	I never used to like them for some reason I thought they were a bit odd but I've got used to them now, mainly because I've got used to using tablet devices. It's lots quicker if you want to use it to browse the web you don't have to wait for it to turn on and stuff.	
emma	And you used your iPad for your comedy act, talk me through how that works? 	
lee	Yes. I just use an application called 'Speak It'. Basically I type in what I want to say and store it. Then I press each joke when I want it to say it. The voice is much clearer than other devices I've used. I use my Lightwriter day to day because it's a lot more recordable. And I also think it's less likely to get to get nicked. I think I've just got used to my Lightwriter voice as being my own. That's maybe that's why I'm reluctant to stop using it. I see it as part of me now.	
rob	So that was Lee Ridley aka Lost Voice Guy talking to Emma Tracey. So staying with the arts, Dean Rodney from The Fish Police who has a learning disability and is on the autistic spectrum has taken to the tablet computer like a kind of disabled duck to water shall we say. He and other musicians have been using tablet computers to create the Dean Rodney Singers, which sounds like something my granddad would probably have on 78s. But apparently it's an international online project which culminated with an interactive installation as part of the Paralympic celebrations this summer. Now he joined us on the phone earlier on and with Becky who was supporting him. 	
dean	My name is Dean and these are the rules. It's like the next generation of technology. It's like you're touching the screen a favourite thing to do on the tablet is you make music, make videos and watch videos like Japanese TV programmes. 	
liz	What's your favourite? 	
dean	It's called Mega Ranger. 	
liz	What do they do in that show? 	
dean	It's for aliens. 	
liz	And you love making music, that's what you do with the Dean Rodney Singers so you use your tablet to make all the music? 	
dean	Yes of course. I used to make music on the PC before. 	
liz	Is it easier to use the tablet or better? 	
dean	It's quite easy. I use one of the apps like the iKaossilator, a synth pad. 	
liz	What can we hear from you soon that you're making on the tablet? 	
dean	Writing a song. It's kind of like a Christmassy type of theme. 	
liz	Ian McCrae rejoins us. Thank you for staying with us, Ian. 	
ian	Yeah good. 	
liz	And just as a visually impaired person touch screens do they work for you?	
ian	It sounds incredibly counter intuitive and I have to say that I was a reluctant, you know, they talk about early adopters, I was a reluctant adopter. And one of the reasons for that was that the first touch screen I used was on a phone and it just didn't work for me at all. It was on a phone that didn't have a screen reader built into it. I then moved over to a different device, just to avoid the product placement issue it begins with 'i' and ends with 'phone', so I've been using that. 	
rob	Subtle. 	
ian	And it really does work fantastically well for me. In fact listening to what was being said earlier about using the internet I actually use my smart phone to go on the internet and find it easier than accessing the internet through a computer. 	
liz	Why? 	
ian	It's just because you get an immediate response, you get an immediate speech response when your finger moves around the screen and you know what you do in order to activate a particular part of the screen. And I have to say it is because the particular company which produced the product that I use has taken the time and the opportunity to completely integrate the access solution into every product across its product range. And that means that you're not using something which is fighting, I don't want to get too technical about it, but you're not using something which is fighting against the operating system, you're using something which is completely integrated with the operating system and knows what it's doing. 	
liz	So it's not a special add-on basically? 	
ian	Exactly no. You can go into any store pick up any device in that store and turn the speech software which is installed on it already on and off you go. 	
rob	But Ian, other Ian, Ian Hamilton, there are some people with disabilities for whom touch screen devices don't work at all isn't there? 	
ian H	Yeah absolutely that's a really good point. These kind of devices are just a tool; for some people they're going to work really well, for some people they're not going to work at all. So they're portable and they're cheap. You can get the kind of set ups now for a few hundred quid which would cost you tens of thousands even only a few years ago. But there's certain types of motor impairments in particular for whom it can just be a complete barrier. So people who can't, for example, make accurate movements, do precise gestures like swiping or dragging and even actually accurately hitting a precise spot on the screen you can quite easily miss what you're aiming for. 	
rob	But there are voice commands you can use to do these things on an iPad? 	
ian H	No. 	
rob	It's still very, very necessarily to have a fair bit of dexterity with your fingers? 	
ian 	Well on my smart phone I've got an application to which I can talk and I can just say, you know, I can say, "Call Sarah" my wife and it will call my wife. 	
rob	It's an ever changing topic and it's one that changes so quickly that I dare say we'll be sitting around the table again 12 months from now and having an entirely different conversation, although me and Liz will probably still be referencing things back to...	
liz	No I've got a question.	
rob	...to 'scratch 'n' sniff'.	
liz	Rob, Rob...	
rob	Have you got something else? 	
liz	No I've actually got a sensible question. 	
rob	Go on. 	
Liz	I have. Because I was thinking when you were talking before about little children now will read a magazine and they don't get why it doesn't respond, are we creating a whole generation of people like attention deficit, do you know what I mean because everything now is so I touch it and it becomes real. If you're a child there it is it's tangible. 	
rob	That doesn't mean you've got ADD. 	
liz	No but don't we get a bit bored then when we get a proper bit of paper and we're like (tapping) oh it doesn't happen. 	
rob	You were an analogue kid, comic strips were incredibly short – why? Because kids don't have that much of an attention span. So I don't really see any difference between then and now. 	
liz	It was a question. I'm interested. 	
rob	What do you think Ian?	
ian H	It's a really good point and that's a genuine worry that special needs teachers have had about the increase usage of these devices for kids on the autistic spectrum in particular. Which is if you are putting them in front of this device all the time, they're quite likely to use it for lots of stimulation and stuff, and that can actually detract from practising the really important things of actually interacting with people. So like a lot of things it's just a case of balance. 	
ian	And of course the other point to make is that one day there won't be any things made of paper anymore, they're just won't. 	
liz	So we've got to move on. Oh man! 	
rob	Thank you very, very much for joining us, Ian McCrae and Ian Hamilton. The Something Special game will be available to download from late November and we'll link to it from our blog when it's available. 
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability.
Rob: 	Do you think that your depression would have taken a 	different form if you weren’t someone in the public 	eye? 
Ruby:	You’ve got to stop saying stuff like this you really do.
Rob:	Why?
Ruby:	Because people don’t hang themselves because they 	had a TV show on BBC4, this is really feeding the 	stigma. This is like laughing at somebody with cancer 	and saying, “Come on do some Scottish dancing.” 
bbc.co.uk/ouch.] 	
liz	In 2010 talk show host and media queen, Oprah Winfrey, set up her own television network after leaving her regular weekday shows. Wheelchair user Zack Anner auditioned on a reality programme where the prize was to become a star on the new network and the tape went viral as they say. He went on to win and become host of his own travel show. 	
rob	And he's moved on to other things since Oprah namely 'Riding Shotgun with Zach Anner', a six part road trip comedy show published weekly on YouTube. 	
liz	Zach joins us from Austin, Texas. Hello Zach. 	
zach	Hello! How are you? 	
rob	Hey we're good. 	
liz	We're fine. Was it your energy that made you win? 	
zach	Yeah that was part of it and mainly just a lot of cheating. 	
rob	And tell us about your new show then, 'Riding Shotgun with Zach Anner', tell us all about it? 	
zach	Well Riding Shotgun is a travel show that we let the internet decide where they sent us and what they wanted us to do. And we did whatever they wanted. So we got into some really crazy stuff. 	
rob	Now did people just essentially want you to go to their home town so they could meet you, or did they have a bit more imagination than that? Did they want you to go to very, very far flung crazy places? 	
zach	Well there was a little bit of a push to send me to Kodiak Alaska but I think that was just what they called trolling on the internet. And then there were people who were like "I'm from Omaha don't come here." But you know for the most part people were very, you know, they had a lot of love for their home town. And that was part of the appeal too was because when we went to these places we were going to be hanging out with strangers and sort of living their perfect day in their cities. 	
liz	And have you been riding shotgun all over the USA or have you travelled further afield? 	
zach	Well we've gone all over the US and Canada which I believe, and I'm not up on, you know, history and politics and all that, but I believe you still own them in some capacity don't you or something? 	
liz	I was going to say well you pretty much probably think that is the whole world, like most Americans. Do you actually have a passport Zach I just wondered?	
zach	I do have a passport. I've been on your side of the pond I have family there. So I have a passport, I don't know if it's actually still valid though. I think I had the picture taken when I was like 12 or something. 	
rob	Now as we've heard your first travel show it was called 'Rolling with Zach Anner' it was a result of a competition on the Oprah Winfrey network so tell us about how all that started for you a couple of years ago? 	
zach	Well my Mum actually called me, I was in Austin and she said Oprah is starting a network and she's giving away a show. And I had wanted to do a travel show for a long time. And she said you've got to audition for this. And it was just a matter of me getting into some really sexy underwear and strutting my stuff and pitching this travel show and the internet really just kind of got behind it, and got excited about it. So the rest from there was doing the reality show thing and actually getting a chance to do it. 	
rob	And I saw your audition tape on YouTube and I must implore anyone listening if you do get the chance do try and find it because it's hilarious. 	
liz	And just seeing Zach in a wig and dress it's worth it for that. 	
rob	It's worth it. 	
liz	It was axed after four episodes yeah?	
zach	Six. 	
liz	Six you made six, okay. 	
zach	Yeah not many people got past four but we did make six. 	
liz	But why do you think it did, why did it not carry on? 	
zach	I think it was a very new network at the time and still trying to find like what its voice was, and basically the bottom line is nobody watched it. So I think that's the main reason. 	
rob	And that is refreshingly honest of you to put it in such blunt terms. Are you still buddies with Oprah? 	
zach	To be honest like we didn't really get too much face to face time. If I saw her on the street I would definitely buy her a quesadilla or something because I'm indebted to her beyond belief because I got the opportunity just because she had the faith in me to give me that shot. So I honestly don't know if she'd consider me a buddy.	
rob	She would if she knew she was going to get a quesadilla out of it I think she'd make more of an effort.	
liz	Who wouldn't? 	
zach	Margaritas and quesadillas, that's what we do here in Texas. 	
liz	And so in your next venture you've gone online it's another travel show, you're using the van that you got from the Oprah show as well so you got something good out of it as well as your profile. 	
zach	Yeah it's fantastic. I got so many great things out of that experience. So in a way this is sort of an extension of the thing that we started with the Oprah show and just kind of like doing something a little bit sillier, a little bit more spontaneous. 	
rob	And with it just being on YouTube now how do you make money out of it? How can you fund it? 	
zach	Oh gosh do you have any ideas on how to do that because we didn't really think about that when we started. We just wanted to make something that we were really, really proud of and...	
rob	Have you been watching 'Breaking Bad' maybe you could just make the van a mobile meth lab. 	
liz	Well presumably 'Breaking Bad' another person with cerebral palsy in it it must be your favourite show of course. I guess you know him? 	
zach	It's a fantastic segway by the way. Yeah I do love that show actually. You've got to like anybody who has CP on television you've got to root for them. 	
liz	You're a disabled person, you're a wheelchair user, how much of that been the focus of the shows?	
zach	It's not really the focus unless we can't get in somewhere and then we have to figure out a way to get around it. I do a lot of piggy backing on the show. If you know from 'Star Wars' I'm like the little Yoda on Luke Skywalker's back a lot of the time. So I mean it comes up and we can use it in the context of the show and it's a joke then that's great. But it's not, you know we're not trying to cram it down people's throats. 	
rob	No it doesn't sound worthy at all which is wonderful. 	
liz	And in the aftermath of the Paralympics that we had here in London everyone that was disabled was kind of labelled as 'inspirational' - are you? 	
zach	I don't necessarily think that I should be inspirational by default. If I do things in my life and career that inspire that's great, but I can't be an inspiration simply because I've used a wheelchair my whole life. That doesn't add up to me, it's not enough. 	
liz	Do you think maybe that's what a lot of the Oprah viewers would have thought of you? 	
zach	I mean I think I get cut a lot of slack just for having a disability and having a good time. And for me I've always wanted to be an entertainer and be good at that so I just want to earn whatever. If I inspire somebody I want to earn it with my deeds and not just my disabilities. 	
rob	Well as a veteran traveller I'd really like to get your opinion on a survey which was released in the UK last week. And it found that air travel for disabled people, rather unsurprisingly, is pretty difficult, there's lot of things about the lack of or the complete absence of disabled access toilets on board jumbo jets or any kind of planes. And I'm just wondering what your experience of flying has been? 	
zach	It sucks most of the time. You're guaranteed to end up with something broken on your wheelchair. That's what I've learned.	
rob	You mean from people throwing it about in the stow?	
zach	Yeah. I don't know what they're doing with it but honestly that's like a guarantee. People try their best but it doesn't seem like there's any real system for working with people with disabilities to make things easier. 	
liz	Is it a bit of a crossed leg situation? A lot of people that contributed to the questionnaire said one of the big problems flying as a wheelchair user, disabled person, is the size of the toilets onboard. 	
rob	You just can't get in, they're tiny. 	
zach	That is my number one fear in life actually is having to use an airplane bathroom. Like that's above death and all the other horrors in the world it's definitely airplane bathrooms number one. 	
liz	Have you ever actually used one? 	
zach	No and it's a process of just like weeks and weeks of preparation, mental and physical preparation so that I don't have to use an airplane bathroom. 	
rob	And a lot of disabled people complain, obviously you're told when you're in the air you should be drinking a lot of fluids. And a lot of people with disabilities are just saying well I'm constantly dehydrated when I'm flying because I'm scared to drink litres of water before I go and step onboard for obvious reasons because I can't use the toilet.	
zach	Yeah. The only way that I've learnt how to deal with it is just like through preparing and knowing that I'm going to be uncomfortable. And there's got to be a better way but you guys are probably going to spearhead it before we do. Like when I travel on the road I brought my own toilet seat with me everywhere I went, like an awesome... Because you guys have...	
rob	You make it sound almost like a pet. 	
zach	Well I'm very proud of this toilet seat and you guys actually inspired it with your toilet seats because bidets are not a big thing in the US and I am all about the bidet. I mean I'm not sure if this is something you guys normally talk about, but I have a toilet seat that I would marry if it were legal. 	
rob	And it probably is in some states. And I must also congratulate you on sounding uncannily like Kermit the frog as well, Zach. 	
zach	Oh yeah. Kermit the frog here! Hey it's the Muppet Show. Something like that. 	
rob	That's amazing. 	
liz	Zach, thanks so much for joining us. A new episode of Zach's show 'Riding Shotgun with Zach Anner' can be watched every week on YouTube. Zach you've been an absolute pleasure to talk to, thank you. 	
zach	Thank you so much! 	
rob	And that's it for November. Thanks to Damon Rose and studio manager Phil Hutchinson. The producer was Emma Tracey. 	
liz	Music this month comes from down under. Rudely Interrupted are a band of people with and without disabilities. By way of example the lead singer is blind and on the autistic spectrum. Well they have a new EP out and are currently touring around their home country Australia. 	
rob	And here's the latest track from Rudely Interrupted 'Is This Me?' So from visually impaired Rob Crossan and the mysteriously impaired Liz Carr goodbye. 	
liz	Goodbye. 
[Playing music]