Ouch Talk Show #94 February 2013
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Rob Crossan and Liz Carr

liz	Time for more disability talk, we know you love it, it’s Ouch for February 2013. 	
rob	Welcome and today Scott Mills’ sidekick on BBC Radio 1, Beccy Huxtable, she left the show recently because of MS and she’ll be talking with us about her decision. 	
liz	We’ll be looking at the little reported disability sports stories, happening in the shadow of the Paralympics.	
rob	And surrogates, intimacy counselling, prostitutes – if you’ve been reading the British media lately you’d think that this is the only basis for a relationship if you're disabled. Well we’ll be talking to Kirsty Liddiard about this as she’s an expert in such matters apparently. 	
liz	So stay tuned because there’s some sex coming later. 
[Jingle: From London it’s Ouch disability talk from the BBC with Liz Carr and Rob Crossan.]	
rob	Or should that be Liz ‘Silent Witness’ Carr let’s just get all the plugs for your drama out of the way right now.	
liz	I don’t know what you’re talking about, Rob.	
rob	Really? Because I’ve heard well the thing is we have had quite a lot of praise about the programme.	
liz	You’ve got, do you know what, I’ve seen the script there’s one email, Rob, let’s not big it up. 	
rob	This is also from somebody who claimed that the only other piece of television she’s ever watched is ‘Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps’. 	
liz	I thought you were going to say, ‘Crossroads’. 	
rob	Or ‘El Dorado’ either way comparatively you’re a genius. 	
liz	Anyway what does she say about me?	
rob	She’s called Peggy Ashleigh and she’s written in and she’s said, “Hello, I would like to know what is Liz Carr’s disability?”	
liz	Oh man!	
Rob	So before we get to that hang on, “by the way, I watched her in ‘Silent Witness’ well done to her she plays the part very well. I’m registered disabled myself so I’m all for anyone who just gets on with living their life.” And she then goes on to say that she’s going to pass our website address on to her granddaughter who is 17 and has spina bifida. So that’s nice that should quadruple or at least double our audience figures. And so yes we have actually had this conversation before haven’t we about what your disability is and where we left it was you don’t want to say because even if we did know we wouldn’t understand. 	
liz	All I’m going to say is like Peggy I too am registered. I don’t know what that means but... 	
rob	I don’t know what registered means.	
liz	…I just want to say it. I don’t know where to go, I don’t know. I might have to talk to Beccy about that later is she already registered, when do you register, with the diagnosis? 	
rob	There’s all kinds of registers out there. 	
liz	I don’t know. 	
rob	Some of them not good. 	
liz	Some of them you don’t want to be on. 	
rob	Yeah I can think of at least one register I would hate to be on. 	
liz	You possibly don’t want to be on this one but I don’t know how you get on or how you get off. People will know, they do, so I’m on a drama show over here in the UK if you're listening abroad called ‘Silent Witness’ and I’m a forensic expert. And if you go on Twitter you will see lots of tweets whenever the programme is on. And people are obsessed they usually call me, excuse me if you don’t like this term – “Who’s the midget Michael Jackson on the show?” That’s been a favourite one. Davros is back on our screens and my favourite on the very first night it went out was “Who’s the freak in the spas chariot?” 	
rob	Amazing!	
liz	I want that on a t-shirt and I’d like to wear that for the next series. I’m the freak in the spas chariot. But yes people are quite obsessed and have quite strong views on me being there. 	
rob	Did you tell me earlier someone said that they were actually scared of you at first but now they’re not? 	
liz	Yes I took that as a…	
rob	They’re just mildly unsettled.	
liz	Yes. No it’s true. 	
rob	Which is how I feel most of the time. 	
liz	Absolutely. Well I’ve seen someone go, “Oh my God every time that she comes on screen I jump.” And then last night, so I think we’re making progress because it was the fourth week, was that somebody said, “Well I used to be jump and be terrified but now I’m getting a bit used to her.” 	
rob	I should point out that with us in the room this afternoon we’ve got Beccy Huxtable and Tony Garrett; hello to you both. 	
tony	Hello there. 	
rob	And Tony will be chatting to you shortly about the Winter Special Olympics which is happening right now at this very moment?	
tony	South Korea as we speak.	
rob	As we speak. 	
liz	Isn’t it all over, Tony, isn’t it all this disability sport malarkey. 	
tony	It’s another year, it’s another bit of fun. 	
rob	Liz barely knew that the London Olympics were on to be quite honest. She had very little clue. 	
liz	The only person that it passed by totally. 	
rob	Completely. And also we have, hello to Beccy Huxtable. Hello.	
beccy	Hello. 	
rob	Now if you listen to Scott Mills’ show on BBC Radio 1 you will know that Beccy is quite well known for doing, well this sort of thing.
[Playing clip: Oh it’s odd like everything goes, round up baby to the freaky show. What happens is the body is a private show, stays right here, p-private show. I like um untamed, don’t tell me how pain, tell them this, bottoms up we’re the champagne. My life coming harder than we’ve hit play. Do you busy with the bail were you in…]
Are you doing a west country accent there? 	
beccy	That’s my natural voice when I’m not on the radio. No I am from Somerset but I put it on a bit more when I’m doing the rap stuff.	
rob	I was going to say if that is your real voice that’s another qualification for being on Ouch! it’s certainly a disability. 	
liz	You went totally red though when that came up though, I love it.	
beccy	I think, do you know what – you picked a really rude bit of that song and it was like me talking about how I liked women in certain outfits and all that sort of stuff and I was listening to it going, “Oh no!”	
rob	I don’t know why you were blushing because that rap will never be broadcast before a smaller audience than now. That’s already been on Radio 1 your time of humiliation has passed, is this sort of vicarious blushing the second time around. Well we’ve got you in because you departed Scott’s show in January after being his, it says here ‘sidekick and the fall guy’ which makes you sound like a sort of tragic clown. Maybe that’s what you were for a number of years. A very popular show I should say. And you left because you had a diagnosis of MS, multiple sclerosis, and we’re going to play a clip now as to when listeners to Scott’s show found out about this. 
[Playing clip: Scott: Just kind of run us through why you’re leaving just so people know.
Beccy: Well I haven’t been on the show fulltime for a while. A while ago I got quite ill, I got MS, which is rubbish. And then I stopped walking, stopped being able to rap – that was quite a hard moment for me. 
Scott: Awful yeah.
Beccy: But yeah I’ve decided I want to come back to work fulltime but I can’t do it.
Scott: Because you’ll notice that Beccy has been kind of on and off for a while and you've been on like a couple of days/three days a week. So this has all kind of been happening for a while now. And there’s been a few quite scary moments hasn’t there? 
Beccy: I think I need to look after my health and safety rather than yours. And basically, if I’m being honest, you are way too demanding.
Scott: I know. 
Beccy: So I’m going…]	
liz	That must have been tough?	
beccy	Yeah it was hard we were trying to work out…the producer said to me do you want to explain why you’re leaving and I think it was only fair, I’ve been part of the listener’s lives for five years and if I’d just gone, “Okay, see yer” it would have been a bit weird. And also I think since my diagnosis it’s been quite hard because no-one really knows what it is, everyone kind of expects it to be something that old people get. And I thought, do you know what, I’ve got a platform here, I’m on Radio 1 I’m just going to talk about it and see what happens. 	
rob	And superb levity with the objective you used. Most people use tragedy, you use rubbish. 	
beccy	No it was…I think rubbish is probably the best way to describe it because it was a bit rubbish, you know you find out and you're like “Uh” and what better word is there than rubbish, it’s just uh. 	
rob	So it’s sort of minor irritation and annoyance would be the overriding emotion?	
beccy	Do you know what it can’t be…you go through so many different feelings kind of when you’re being diagnosed, and by the time I was diagnosed it was almost a relief because so many weird things had happened to me and I was so pleased that somebody had actually gone, “Right, this is what it is.” And then next time I fell over or the next time I couldn’t speak at least I had… I could just go, “Oh it’s the MS” and laugh and get on with it, do you know what I mean, it’s kind of just take it in your stride rather than… I think the worrying about what was happening to me was worse than actually all these things because you can kind of deal with it, you get used to it but I think the not knowing was probably the worst bit. 	
tony	And how long did it take before they properly diagnosed?	
beccy	A long time. I think quite a lot of people with MS say because the symptoms are so varied it’s years. I mean I think I’ve had it years. I’ve been back and forth from the doctor kind of with things that have been related to this I would say two or three years. And then mostly in the last year. But it was only really when I stopped walking that I think they were like, “Oh it’s something a bit more serious than just an itchy head or just a bit tired” do you know…	
rob	An itchy head?	
beccy	Yeah you can get this weird thing with MS where it kind of feels like you’ve got like little creatures crawling about on you in different places. You get a lot of pins and needles and kind of…	
rob	I think a lot of people who work with Scott Mills have that sensation.	
liz	Or who listen to the show as well. 	
beccy	But I’d go to the doctor and say, “I’ve got an itchy head” and they’d say, “It’s stress.” I was like, “I’m stressed because I’ve got an itchy head.” And they kind of give you creams and none of that would work and spent a fortune on different shampoos. In the end you're just grateful when someone tells you what it is. 	
rob	I thought your hair did have a remarkable sheen to it, now I know why.	
liz	But you got diagnosed kind of by a listener is that right?	
beccy	Yes, yeah. So I’d been having a few problems and Scott’s mum actually has MS but she has a different type, she has progressive MS which is different to what I’ve got which is relapsing remitting. So we’d been kind of talking about it but I was getting this weird buzzing sensation every time I tilted my head forward I’d get sort of an electric shock down my spine. And we were sort of joking about it. We did this feature on the show where we read out each other’s texts and I’d sent one to Scott going, “Oops buzzing again off to the doctors” or something. And we were sort of going, “Ha ha yeah Beccy vibrates, not in a good way, you know, she’s not one of them.” And actually a listener emailed and said you know this could be Lhermitte syndrome I think it’s called, and it’s a symptom of MS. She needs to go back and say to the doctor that that’s what she thinks it is. And I did. And it was. So thank you very much. 	
rob	So if it wasn’t for that listener…	
beccy	Yeah.	
rob	…surely…	
beccy	I mean I would have…	
rob	Somebody would have clicked anyway.	
beccy	Eventually yes because it’s obviously not right if you're vibrating. But it would have taken a lot…	
rob	Not in this context, no. 	
beccy	It would have taken a lot lot longer so…	
rob	And how did listeners react when you told them the news? 	
beccy	They were so lovely and supportive. There were a lot of people going, “Well I’ve got MS and I work fulltime” and I’m like “Yes I’m also working fulltime, I’m just not going to do a daily radio show anymore which kind of requires a lot of my time. I’m going to go back and do a normal…- ooh knocked the mic - I should be more professional than that, do a normal office job which means I can work more flexibly. They were brilliant. And do you know I had so many lovely texts and emails from people, kind of young people 15 to kind of 25 saying my sister’s got it, I’ve got it, my girlfriend’s got it. I had this really lovely email from this girl who lives in the Orkney Islands and she was saying, you know, I’ve been diagnosed since I was 17/18 she said I thought I was the only young person that had it and I couldn’t believe that someone on Radio 1 was talking about it. And it just made her feel so much more normal. She was so happy. 	
tony	That’s really important because you know often you know serious debates and talks on Radio 5 and Radio 4, Radio 1 just never come that way…	
beccy	Yeah you don’t really talk about…	
tony	And that’s a whole audience where lots of people, you know lots of youngsters like yourself, you know, with MS. 	
beccy	Yeah it really affects them and it’s a weird illness because one minute you can be incredibly disabled like one minute I can’t walk I’m falling over, one minute I can’t speak or I’m really slurry. And then three or four days later I’ll be totally fine. And you never quite get your head around it. And other people, you know, I think if I fall over at work now I had to tell people otherwise they’d be like, “Oh what’s going on with her?” 	
rob	Drinking problem. 	
beccy	Yeah. Big lunch, you know, one of those sort of things. 	
tony	That’s the vibrating…	
rob	You sounded like, you know, Scott being so demanding and you needed a quieter show, I’m trying to think of the quietest possible show on the BBC that you could maybe be transferred on to. Would queuing up the shipping forecast music. Or they have one on Radio 4 on Sunday ‘Bells on Sunday’ where all they do is someone has to go off to some provincial church and record some bells for five minutes. 	
beccy	Yeah that would...	
rob	Incredibly boring obviously. But I think you could be fulfilled.	
liz	She’s probably doing more than that I think. 	
rob	I’m here to help, you know, Beccy.	
Beccy	No it was funny when I first said I was leaving I mentioned because I mentioned that I was going to go and work with a guy called Aled who presents the Sunday Surgery but he also works in the team that I work in, the kind of creative projects team. But a lot of people thought that because I’ve got MS now I was going to go and work on the surgery. And it’s like because I’m ill now it doesn’t mean to say I’m going to go and work on the surgery.	
liz	That’s where people write in with their problems, medical stuff?	
beccy	Yes.	
liz	Were you used to, I mean, you made that decision to declare what you had and why you were going and all of that and you’re obviously really pleased with that. Do you think you’re just used as a broadcaster to revealing your life every day when you were on the Scott Mills show?  	
beccy	I think it’s funny, I did make specific choices about what I was and wasn’t going to talk about when I got that job, and I never mentioned my boyfriend’s name, and there was a lot of personal things… Because I realised really quickly that people that you know, people that are close to you hear a bit and get the wrong idea. Like my boyfriend’s mum rang up and went, “Oh when are you getting your boobs done?” And I was like, “I’m what?” And she’d heard like one bit of the show and another bit put two and two together and thought I was having a boob job. And there’s so much explanation that needs to kind of go on afterwards that in the end I just stopped talking about those sort of things. 	
rob	And it is good, obviously on a far lesser scale, we, inevitably Liz and I have to talk about our disabilities to a certain extent, and there is that barrier where you kind of think am I actually saying too much now and you’re never really quite sure until you get reactions from people who are just listening. It’s very difficult because you want to reveal but also you don’t want to be in a position where you’re sort of compromising yourself too much and people get the wrong idea. And I know we’ve had a few discussions about this haven’t we? 	
liz	Yeah and you can see how important it is though I mean the fact that you did and were very honest, it sounds like it was a brilliant experience. And I think if you’ve got this rubbish thing. 	
beccy	Yeah it’s kind of funny because I’m not sure somebody said to me, “Oh I wouldn’t say that you’ve got that.” And it’s kind of somebody said oh you know people didn’t really talk about it back in the day but I think, you know, with  Jack Osborne saying – they call it coming out don’t they – Jack Osborne saying he’s got it. I just think well for me the more people that know about it the more people that are going to be there to help me and the more people that are going to be able to understand and help other people. And ultimately it might lead to better diagnosis of things like this because more people will see the symptoms and go…like that girl did who messaged in and say, “If you’ve got the vibration it might be this.” 	
tony	But everyone’s a lot more grown up nowadays aren’t they and, you know, you can talk about these subjects thankfully. 	
liz	Yeah. I just want to ask about the rapping, very impressed with the rapping. You were doing that, that’s what you were known for that on the Scott Mills show. What were the other highlights for you in his show? 	
beccy	The funny thing about the rapping actually is when I was first in with the neurologist I’d been doing a week’s worth of raps so I’d been doing a rap every day and my boyfriend actually said to him he said, “This couldn’t be caused by the rapping could it?” And he actually went, “No I don’t think so” but you could see in his head going could it be caused by the rap? No it wasn’t. I said, “God if a rap has set me off to this I’m going to be gutted.” 	
liz	He was probably thinking the doctor was probably thinking I could get a paper out of this. ‘Oh my God rapping leads to MS.’	
beccy	There were so many brilliant things I did with Scott. We went to the Edinburgh Festival every year and did different shows from up there which was fantastic. And it was just the general kind of everyday stupid stuff that we did, like today a guy on Scott’s show went up and down the lifts of the new BBC building just in his underpants. And it sounds stupid but it makes the listeners laugh so much and you never forget things like that. 	
liz	And are you missing it? 	
beccy	Yes I miss the show, I miss the laughs with it. But I don’t necessarily miss the workload it was…working on a daily radio show I mean it’s now like being a surgeon, it’s not like doing a really hard job in a factory but it is stressful and there are pressures and I’m pleased to have got rid of those. 	
rob	Stay there, guys, we’ll be back with Beccy Huxtable and Tony Garrett a little bit later on. 
[Jingle: Ouch talking disability. If I say something funny biscuit as a tic then please laugh at it. Biscuit. I feels unnatural if people don’t. Biscuit. But there’s a big difference between laughing at someone because they move or do something in a different way, biscuit, and laughing because somebody’s talked about alien squirrels in chastity belts. Biscuit. Help! 
bbc.co.uk/ouch]
So if you've been watching and reading the news recently you may have noticed a little bit of a theme emerging with disability, sex and relationships - all big stories gaining mainstream media attention right now. 	
liz	We’re breaking away from the usual Ouch talk show to bring you some urgent news headlines. 	
rob	[Playing BBC news music] Hello, I’m Rob Crossan.	
liz	And I’m Liz Carr.	
rob	Breaking news this hour: the first so-called legal brothel for disabled people is to be set up in the United Kingdom. “But it’s more about intimate therapy than sexual relationships” says its founder Madame Becky. 	
liz	An Eastbourne care home is being investigated for allegedly inviting prostitutes in to bring relief to its disabled residents in the hope it will stop them groping the staff. The council are concerned it might be exploitative.	
rob	And in entertainment Hollywood film ‘The Sessions’ was released in January, it features a disabled man losing his virginity to a sex surrogate played by Helen Hunt. Based on a true story the man in question, Mark O’Brien, hoped that popping his cherry would help him break barriers and lead to a relationship with someone. 	
liz	And ‘The Undateables’ returns to Channel 4. The unfortunately named programme followed more disabled people all hoping to start a meaningful relationship through a dating agency. It featured a woman who couldn’t speak due to a stroke and a man with albinism who said he could only go out in moonlight. 	
rob	And it’s not even Valentine’s Day yet hey. So joining us from Toronto in Canada is Kirsty Liddiard, a sociologist who specialises in the aspect of disability and relationships. Hello, Kirsty.	
kirsty	Hello. 	
rob	Hello. Lovely to have you with us. 	
kirsty	Thank you.	
liz	Now, Kirsty, you’re based in the disabilities study unit at Ryerson University. You heard our news headlines, ‘Disability, sex and relationships’ are they being discussed in the most positive way at the moment? 	
kirsty	I’m not too sure. It’s an interesting route for the media to take we’re so used to issues of disability and sex being very silenced, particularly in mainstream media. And the fact that the media has now kind of run with many of these headlines and these news stories about disability and sex makes for a very interesting time and some very interesting questions about disability and sex. 	
liz	Yeah because on one hand it’s disability and sex is taboo, but actually it feels like people are talking an awful lot about sex. 	
kirsty	Very much so. There seems to be a kind of very natural curiosity I don’t know where that quite stems from. But I think that even though some of the headlines are problematic in the way they put disability and sex across. I think it’s really important that they’re starting dialogues and conversations around disability and sex which I think can never be a bad thing. 	
liz	We asked people on Twitter you know what is the biggest a barrier to a relationship for you as a disabled person. We got so many responses and some, there’s actually one I want to read out: Mel Griffiths tweeted she said, “I think the majority of sighted men are afraid to date a blind person. There seems to be more blind men with sighted partners than blind women with sighted partners.” 	
kirsty	That’s interesting. 	
liz	And you know and I’m just wondering are non-disabled women more likely to go for a disabled partner because they think, you know, disabled men are more caring, is there that playing as well? 	
kirsty	I don’t know that could be an argument. The rates of marriage are higher in disabled men than for disabled women. But I think this goes back to a gender thing of men in patriarchal society have greater experiences of social and sexual power so maybe that’s a factor in why disabled men are more likely to marry than disabled women. 	
liz	It seems like it’s a real tug of war though if you're a disabled person because a lot of people tweeted in about having people see past them being disabled and seeing who they are. But then others of course wrote in and said they need to know the reality. Megan wrote in and she said for her the barrier is having your partner watch your health deteriorate quickly from being fairly symptom-less to then multiple hospital appointments all within the space of two years. So there’s this, you know, we’re sort of in battle aren’t we; we want people to love us and see us for who we are, but as part of that they also need to see the reality. 	
rob	At your weakest and most vulnerable I suppose. 	
liz	Yeah.	
kirsty	Disability can impact on intimate relationships in quite a significant way, there’s no way of getting round that, as you say that’s the reality of living with an impaired body in an ablest society. But I do think that disability and impairment can bring also many benefits to people’s intimate relationships in really quite unique and special ways. I had one couple that took part in my research and they did talk about the reality of care and caring and the reality of health issues and how they were quite impactful particularly to sexual life at points. But then they kind of told their story of, not overcoming those issues, but working around those issues in quite a productive way. 	
rob	It seems like there must be an overriding sense and I don’t know if you feel this personally in your life, but just a feeling of frustration about having all these hurdles in front of you, because obviously some people are able to hurdle over them with relative ease, but for many others they can’t they fall at the first fence. 	
kirsty	The stories of young people are something I have a particular interest in because their sexuality and their sexual stories were…the things they talked about within their sexual stories such as lack of privacy, not having… And issues with parents particularly was a real issue. Having basic physical access to places like nightclubs and pubs which is still quite dire. 	
rob	When you say lack of privacy do you mean in the sense of needing assistance all or most of the time?	
kirsty	Yeah. I think when you have a body that needs to be cared for in some way you have a very different relationship with privacy than I would imagine for most non-disabled people. And we think about sex and sexuality and they are inherently private things, so when you have a body that needs people to assist it or assist you that can change how sexuality and privacy interact. 	
liz	How do you get into disability and sex and studying it, what’s your…how did you get to this, are you just nosey about people’s sex. 	
kirsty	If I had a pound every time somebody asked me that question I’d be a very rich woman. It’s a good question. I was very interested in disability studies, I did my undergraduate degree in sociology and reading around disability studies literature and activism I noticed that there was a kind of marked gap where we would research disabled people’s experiences of transport, of education, of employment and those kind of systemic structural barriers to disabled people’s lives. There’s a far lesser research and activist focus on the private and more intimate parts of disabled people’s lives. So that was kind of what was… I was questioning why that silence was there and I wanted to find out more about what disabled people thought, what were their experiences of sexuality and intimacy. 	
LIZ	So it fascinated you basically? 	
kirsty	Absolutely. 	
liz	And what are you looking at…the debate’s about should prostitutes going into care homes you know has really hit the headlines and a lot of responses to that. But also about a brothel being open, you know, but not being called a brothel almost being called a clinic. Do we need, you know, do disabled people do we need these services or do we just need relationships?	
rob	Isn’t calling it a clinic a bit sterile, let’s just be a bit more honest here shall we?	
kirsty	Yeah I think that’s a very interesting point and that’s certainly something that I would agree with, that when we talk about disability and sex work we have to frame it in this very therapeutic and rehabilitative call it a sexual health centre kind of way, why is it not okay for disabled people to go to a brothel and pay for sex in a kind of standardised way? 	
liz	But to be boringly pedantic isn’t it almost being called a clinic so it gets around the laws because to open a brothel in the UK would be illegal. 	
kirsty	Yeah. 	
liz	But to open a clinic…	
kirsty	Potentially that could be a huge part of it. I think Madam Becky herself has said that the services are voluntary. I could be wrong about that. So that’s another way of getting round the potentially illegal situation there. 	
liz	But it’s very much medicalised?	
kirsty	Very much so. Very within kind of a rehabilitative space. And sex work really interests me as a form of sexual access for disabled people. Of the men that I interviewed seven out of 16 of them had been with a sex worker at least once and had paid for sex, so it is a reality of many disabled people’s sexual lives. 	
liz	I just need to ask you: is that higher than the average for non-disabled men?	
kirsty	There are not similar statistics of the non-disabled population. 	
liz	Rob?	
rob	There’s a thesis waiting to be written.	
liz	I was just thinking, Damon, Rob I just want to do a little poll now. But no. 	
kirsty	So it is a reality in disabled people’s lives. My particular worry about the kind of conversations and the media portrayal of disability and sex work is whose voices do we leave out when we talk about disability and sex work? And I would argue that we’re not really listening or paying much attention to the desires of disabled women who may want to pay for sex as well or may not. How does the way that we talk about disability and sex work change when we include a diversity of voices? Because at the moment it seems that when we talk about disability and sex work we’re talking about disabled men and actually there could be a lot more equality. 	
rob	So you think women would pay for sex if they had the opportunity to in this? 	
kirsty	I think if disabled women…if there was more of a market for disabled women to pay for sex maybe more of them would. 	
rob	Have you had any stories people who have actually told you this, that they would? 	
kirsty	No. All of the women in my research were kind of quite horrified at my suggestion they might pay for sex. 	
liz	You were asking the wrong women I think. 	
kirsty	Maybe I was who knows. So that tells you immediately there’s a marked gender difference in how we talk about paying for sex and things. 	
rob	Have all these problems created a situation whereby it’s actually affected the sex drive of many people with disabilities? Do you find that a lot of people… Do the people you’ve met in your studies do they tend to have very high sex drives or do they just want a cuddle? 	
kirsty	I don’t know I tend not to think of sexuality in terms of a sex drive maybe that’s quite a masculinist idea.  	
rob	Ooh right, okay I’m sorry. 	
kirsty	I do think though that from the people that I’ve spoken to and the stories that I’ve gathered for my research was that many men who had paid for sex for many it could be a very sexy, very fun, very exhilarating experience, but it was quite often conflated with intimacy needing a cuddle and needing to be loved and they’re very different things. I don’t think the sex work can’t not be intimate like it can be an intimate form of sexuality I would think but I think it’s positioned as an answer to a much bigger social and cultural problem as you touched on earlier on the show than just putting a band aid on the issue and bringing sex workers in. 	
liz	Kirsty, thank you so much, it’s been fascinating. 	
kirsty	Thank you. 	
liz	Thank you for joining us. Where can people go if they want to find out more about your research? 	
rob	We don’t mean where’s the brothel, or where can we go to find out where it is. 	
kirsty	No I won’t tell you that.	
liz	However they probably care about that.	
kirsty	I know it but I’m not going to tell you. If you go to the Warwick website and put my name in the search engine you should be able to find out more about my work. 	
liz	That’s Warwick University? 	
kirsty	Yeah Warwick University in the UK. I have an e-portfolio on that site which gives links to my writing. And I’ve actually written a research summary which takes my very big 400 page doctoral thesis and puts it into a 12 page accessible document for community use. So that’s a really nice document to go and read if you want to find out more about my work. 	
liz	Brilliant. Well Kirsty Liddiard thank you for joining us. 	
kirsty 	Thank you very much. 
[Jingle: Ouch, talking disability. We will never think of disability in the same way again. From Sebastian Coe’s closing ceremony speech. Tanni, do you think that’s true? 
Tanni: I think it was absolutely, definitely true around the time of the Paralympics and I think people are more positive towards disabled people. But I guess when we see next year’s hate crime figures then we’ll have a better view of whether there’s been a real change or whether it’s been a moment in time.
bbc.co.uk/ouch]	
rob	Okay so we’re back with Beccy and Tony. Tony Garrett, hello again. The Paralympics have overshadowed all the other disability sports I suppose haven’t they recently but there are some other events happening this year at this very moment in fact. We mentioned the Winter Special Olympics in South Korea, there’s also the Summer Special Olympics in Bath coming up, the Deaf Olympics in Sofia, the Amputee Games – it’s impossible to keep up with all of this.	
tony	It’s a whirlwind, it’s a whirlwind of disability sport. Some more high profile than others and I think it’s time to move forward we had a big mega year last year but lots to move forward in this new year in 2013. And I think there’s lots of really great work being done at grass roots level, there’s lots of opportunities for youngsters from six to nine onwards and I think they’re getting really well established. So I think if you want to get into sport whether it’s just grass roots sports or if you want to get into elite sport there’s lots of good pathways there now that are moving forward. 	
rob	Tell us about the Deaflympics then. 	
tony	Yeah I mean, as I say, with obviously lots of different disabilities the Deaf Olympics, not many people know about the Deaf Olympics, not many people know about Special Olympics they get no funding, I mean, basically this is where one of the big differences is, and one of the key things of Paralympics obviously the sports are funded mostly from Lottery funding via UK Sport, but Deaf Olympics gets no funding from the government, it doesn’t get anything…no Lottery funding and this is the same with the Special Olympics so it’s a real issue for people with those disabilities. 	
liz	But, Tony, I have to ask you: deaf people they can run like everyone else, why do they need their own special…	
rob	Except that they can’t hear the starter gun. 	
tony	Yeah I mean...	
liz	Apart from that, do you know what I mean why don’t they go in the proper Olympics?	
tony	Absolutely I think there is more and more that’s the way it’s going to be going and rightly so I personally think. Because, you know, obviously if you're deaf you have a disability but actually it’s not a physical disability. So in many ways you can be up there running in able-bodied sports, so it shouldn’t have as many challenges. Let's put it like that.  	
rob	But if they get no funding why don’t they just merge and be part of the Paralympics?	
tony	Well they were many years ago, Deaf Olympics were part of the Paralympics body a number of years ago. But for reasons best known to themselves they decided they’d go their own route which actually has been a major mistake and they’re desperately trying to get back in with the International Paralympic Committee and conversations have been taking place. 	
rob	Perhaps they’ve realised the error of their ways. 	
tony	Absolutely. 	
liz	If they don’t get any funding is it more like just a sort of a deaf sports day?	
tony	I suspect various deaf people would disagree with that a touch, Liz. 	
rob	Forgive her, she knows not what she says when it comes to saying…	
liz	Deaf egg and spoon perhaps?	
rob	Where there is rancour let me bring balm to this environment. 	
tony	I think it’s difficult. I mean Special Olympics big year for them, big year for Special Olympics in Bath it’s the National Summer Games in Bath which will take place at the end of August start of September. Seventeen hundred athletes with intellectual disabilities will compete in 12 different sports. Lots of funding, lots of family volunteers are needed and of course with the Special Olympics it is very much a sort of mass participation. You know it’s a great opportunity for the youngsters. There are 1.2 million people with intellectual difficulties…difficulties, sorry about that, disabilities. 	
rob	I think it’s alright to say difficulties isn’t it?	
tony	I think so, challenges. But an interesting little stat here 200 babies are born each week with learning difficulties and that’s quite an interesting stat.	
rob	It also means 200 potential future Paralympians.	
tony	Well I was going to say, and what we must say is that…	
rob	Parents probably aren’t thinking of that right now. 	
tony	I suspect possibly not but what we would say is that obviously last year at the Paralympics is that athletes with learning difficulties came back into some of the sports, so there is that sort of crossover starting to happen. But I think really important for them this year. But going back into Paralympic world…	
liz	Tell me, tell me about…	
tony	I know, Liz, you’re on tenterhooks. 	
liz	All I want basically is the gossip and I want to know what’s happening with Heather Mills…	
rob	Heather Mills. 	
liz	And the Paralympic Winter Olympics?	
rob	The new Eddie the Eagle Edwards in terms of Olympic uselessness.	
tony	Heather, one legged…	
liz	Is she any good?	
tony	Is she any good?	
rob	Please tell me she’s rubbish. 	
tony	Well she’s been trying…this is a story that broke about a year or so ago where Heather says, “I’ve only got one leg but I will be competing for Great Britain” and I think the British Paralympic Association went, “Oh dear!”	
rob	But then gave her loads of funding anyway. 	
tony	Well I don’t think they’ve given her any funding, I think she’s got a bit of money there put to one side. 	
rob	The McCa millions. 	
tony	The McCa millions have probably kept her going. She is definitely trying hard to qualify Winter Paralympics February 2014…	
liz	Will she be in it? 	
tony	I suspect not. She’s got to get some really good results and good timings within the next month or two otherwise she’s not going to be on the team. But never say never. There must be a good song there somewhere along the lines. 	
liz	Just going twice a year on a skiing holiday doesn’t make you a Paralympian does it?	
rob	Why not?	
liz	Just because you’ve got one leg. Beccy, has anyone come at you and gone, “Well you could always take up disability sport.” 	
beccy	Yes. 	
rob	Someone’s thrown you in the direction of the nearest sports field. 	
tony	You’ve nicked my question it was down there to say which sport would you like?	
beccy	Well do you know what, we did this feature on Scott’s show called ‘What’s Beccy’s forte?’ when they were trying to find out what I was good at, because I don’t think I’m good at anything. But I think if I suddenly found it I’d obviously be the world champion. And one of the first ones we did which we weren’t allowed to broadcast because I was actually quite good was clay pigeon shooting. And when the guy said, “Ooh you could make the women’s Olympic team.” 	
rob	Why couldn’t they broadcast it just because you were good?	
beccy	Because it was the first one in a series that was meant to run for six months and we were meant to find out what I was good at and it was the first one we recorded, and he said, “Yeah you’re Olympic standard.” And it got to the point where we were like well we can’t play that one then, let’s get her to be a bingo caller, and let’s get her to go and present on QVC or something. 	
rob	But in all seriousness is this not something…that’s a hell of a compliment have you not considered maybe pursuing this? 	
beccy	Well yeah but I don’t know. It really hurt my shoulder, to be honest, it wasn’t the nicest of sports because every time you do it it’s like uh and it really sort of pulls back. 	
tony	But think of the pigeons!	
rob	I don’t they’re real pigeons. 	
tony	No I’m only joking. A bit of humour. 	
rob	Listeners any of you…the clay bit of clay pigeon is very important to remember. 	
tony	No, no. And I’m going to make a note down ask afterwards which sport. 	
liz	So, Tony, before we go…	
tony	Vanessa May, violinist, 34 she wants to compete as well next year from Thailand. If she qualifies she will be only the second ever person from Thailand to compete in the Winter Olympics, not Paralympics, but that’s interesting. She’s been skiing for many years but she’s given up a year of her career in the music business to try and qualify for the Winter Olympics. 	
liz	Do you think proper athletes get a little bit annoyed then at all these kind of semi-celebs going, or celebs…	
tony	Yeah. But then again if you’re stupid enough to ski down slopes and if you're visually impaired, Rob I’m sure you’ve done that before?	
rob	No I have not, absolutely not.	
tony	Hey, Rob, we could get you down for 2018 you know.	
rob	I’m so sick of this. One thing I think all listeners should do is just look into the mirror and say, “I’m going on a ski holiday” and you’ll notice that you look 15% more smugger than you did before you said that. And it’s incredibly annoying how people say, “Well there’s blind skiers, Rob, there’s visually impaired skiers” yes I know and they all have horrible injuries and that’s why I’m not doing it. 	
beccy	Just go to the après-ski that’s what I would do. It’s all about the food and the drink. 	
liz	Tony, before we lose you, a couple of other quick stories? 	
tony	Yeah I think a couple of very interesting stories obviously off the back of the success of the Paralympics last year Great Britain’s Peter Eriksson who was the head coach of UK Paralympics Athletics has now got, what some would say, the top job – he’s now running the whole of UK Athletics because their main man didn’t perform well enough and he’s left. And John Atkinson who looked after the Paralympic team for the swimming, Great Britain’s swimming team, he’s off to Canada. 	
liz	So they’ve jumped ship from the Paralympics to normal sport?	
tony	That’s one way we can call it.	
rob	Or if we weren’t confused enough with all this Olympic nomenclature what’s the Olympic Grand Prix finally, tell me a little bit about this?	
liz	And what’s a nomenclature for a start?	
tony	Yeah explain that one. Obviously trying to get more high profile events in the calendar this year so there’s been an announcement that they’ll be more high profile athletics events sort of Grand Prix type events during this year. I think it will start at a lower level, but the idea is obviously for the likes of Jonny Peacock and David Weir there’s going to be more athletics around the world, more competition. Because that is one of the big problems that we know is that in terms of off the back of the Paralympics what’s going on – cycling Jody Cundi’s been tweeting a lot, you know he lost it at the Paralympics as we all know, even you probably knew that, Liz, he threw his toys or his leg out of the pram if you remember?	
liz	Oh that one, yes. 	
tony	Leg out the pram, he got upset. So there’s very little for our Paralympic cyclists to do this year, they’ve got to wait for the Commonwealth Games but that’s actually, you know there’s lots of progress going on events to keep the profile aware, make sure, Liz, you know what’s going on.	
liz	So we’ll keep seeing you basically is what you’re saying, Tony?	
tony	And an excuse for me to pop in now and again. 	
liz	Okay. It’s always a treat, Tony, thank you for joining us and Beccy.	
rob	Thank you to you both. 	
liz	Thank you so much. It’s the end of the show now. Thanks for listening. And thanks to Emma Tracey, Phil Hutchinson and our producer Damon Rose without whom we’d be naked and rudderless. 	
rob	And we’ll be back in March with both rudder and clothes to hide our wanton nakedness with more of the same. In the meantime you can email us at ouch@bbc.co.uk or just tweet us at bbcouch. 	
liz	We’re leaving you with a track by Kray-z-Legz. There’s an article on our blog about him, bbc.co.uk/ouch, he’s a rapper from Street in Somerset. He managed to persuade the producer of the Wu-Tang Clan to mix his album. I feel so young and with-it saying that, the Wu-Tang Clan there you go. Anyway here it is, it’s Kray-z-Legz with Man of the Street. 	
liz and rob	Goodbye!
[Playing music]