Ouch Talk Show January 2012
bbc.co.uk/ouch/podcast

Presented by Mat Fraser and Liz Carr 

liz	[Jingle: It's the Ouch Talk Show New Year'S Special from the BBC with Mat Fraser and Liz Carr.] 
Hello, we're back to doing our regular Talk Show next month but today is one of our occasional round table programmes where we put some interesting people together in a room and see what happens. 	
mat	That's right, it's the New Year and at New Year it is always good to take another look at what you're up to and work out if you can't improve on it. Self improvement seems to be all the rage in these difficult economic times, and with us in the studio we've got three guests who in one way or another seek to motivate people to help them get the best out of themselves. 	
liz	So going round the table, first we have Gill Hicks, hello Gill.	
gill	Hello. 	
liz	Gill is a surveyor of the Al-Qaeda terrorist attack on London's transport system in July 2005. She was just one person away from suicide bomber Jermaine Lindsay on the tube at Russell Square. She lost both her legs below the knee and when admitted to hospital on that day she wasn't expected to survive. She'd been so badly injured they weren't sure what sex she was. Well subsequently she gave up her career in design to motivate people towards peace. Gill, welcome! Tell me good things can come from bad? 	
gill	I think it's up to our own choice to say that good things can come from bad. So I think bad things happen and we have... the only thing we have is that power to say, "How am I going to deal with this, what is my choice in this situation?"	
mat	Toby Mildon is a personal performance coach, author, entrepreneur and a project manager at the BBC as well. Disabled from birth last year he became seriously ill and was in a coma for two months which challenged his outlook on life. Hi Toby, welcome. 	
toby	Hey Mat, hi. 	
mat	What's the top tip that you give your clients? 	
toby	Probably one of the main top tips is around the whole thing about mindset. And it's kind of a continuation about whether you can choose... whether good things come out of bad things and it's about how somebody approaches life and turns something negative into a positive. So it's purely about mindset really. 	
liz	Our third person is Francesca Martinez. Hello, Francesca.	
FRANCESCA	Hello.	
liz	She played Rachel a regular character in much loved children's TV school drama, Grange Hill, from the age of 15. She then found her way into stand up comedy and regularly does presentations designed to motivate. She has Cerebral Palsy but prefers to call herself wobbly - like it! Thankfully her recent back story hasn't been quite as dramatic as the other two guests. Francesca, you're often cited as a great example of someone who's positive about being disabled. So what is the 'Francesca approach' to life? 	
FRANCESCA	Well I do believe without getting all shmolzy that life is an amazing gift and we often forget that and they'll be days not guaranteed, so I guess I really try and remind people that whatever body you're born into or circumstances you face being alive is a great and amazing thing and life is a lot more enjoyable when you appreciate what you can do rather than what you can't. 	
liz	And do you think that being disabled gives you that unique perspective on that?	
FRANCESCA	I do. A lot of people say to me, "Has it been a blessing?" And I think ultimately being wobbly has taught me kind of what it's important and what's not. And so I'm really grateful in a way. "Yay for wobbly!" 	
liz	A great way to start a new year. Gill, such a lot's been told about your horrific experience on the 7th July 2005 during the attacks in London. We're not going to dwell on it but you were just one person away from the bomber, you were the last person pulled away from the tube - incredibly lucky to be alive, very grateful that you're here with us. Now you talked about a real sense of euphoria afterwards and when you were feeling better you got rid of your career, you changed your path in life. Why did you do this?  	
gill	I think to start off just to echo what Francesca was saying that that euphoria is still with me today six years on because it's that fine line between I might not have been here and that I am here and I'm still Gill - how amazing! I've got bits missing but I'm still me. I still have exactly the same sense of humour I had before, as bad as it is, but how great to have my bad sense of humour back. And the other part for me I think that allows me to, I guess, to create life number two which is how I call it, is that I've experienced the brilliance of humanity, and that's something we perhaps don't get to see everyday unless we're looking for it, but it is there. But for me and especially as you highlighted in my intro that I was there without an identity and to be labelled just 'One Unknown Estimated Female'. 	
mat	What's this just one unknown? 	
gill	That was the label I was given when I was admitted to hospital. 	
mat	What do you mean on the end of the bed? 	
gill	On my wristband. So I was given a little wristband that just said, 'One Unknown Estimated Female'.	
mat	Wow!	
gill	And then it was up to a detective to find my identity of which we went... it's a whole elaborate story. But I think for me the gift that I've taken from that and the reason I do what I do now and that nothing else made sense, if you like, going back to my old job, was that having this experience of humanity, of being this one unknown person and realising gosh people put their lives at risk to come down into a situation to save me. And they didn't know if there'd be a secondary device, they didn't know if it was a chemical war, they didn't know what it was, but they put their lives at risk to save me and they, in a way, saved me not just that day but every day since. And it's that basis of humanity that's been, I guess, my role model in how I shape my life number two and why I do what I do now. 	
liz	But you talk about your life one and your life two and I mean Toby you've been a disabled person since birth but last year you were in a coma for a couple of months and you talk about that being quite a life changing moment. For you what happened? 	
toby	You know what I think everything that Gill said I completely... I can resonate with that because I feel like I've perhaps got a second life as well because in April I went into hospital and then I ended up in a coma for two months. And doctors actually turned off my life support machine because they thought that, I don't know the full story but apparently it's detrimental, ironically, to stay on life support for a long time so they actually decided to turn off my life support and then it was a 50:50 chance whether I would make it through or not. And so I did make it through, obviously because I'm here in the studio with you guys, but I really genuinely feel that I have got a second life. 	
liz	That's just, as you're saying that it's like, "So they turned off your life support" you don't hear many people on radio say that and then them be here to talk about the aftermath. 	
mat	Normally that's the last thing in the sentence isn't it? "So we turned off the life support system." Wow! 	
liz	So you come out hospital, you become stronger again, you survive that. 	
toby	Yeah. 	
liz	How do you change your life? 	
toby	A lot of it is down to the way I think and the mindset actually. So before, I mean before I got sick I was already training to be a coach, to work with people and help them one to one. But after the experience that I had in hospital it only really kind of cemented the fact that I should continue to do that line of work. So that's what I'm doing up until now working with people and helping them through.	
mat	Francesca, speaking as a bornie, Ouch vernacular for a person that is born with their disability and does not acquire it. 	
FRANCESCA	I guessed that but thanks. 	
mat	Can you relate to any of this, is there any... Have you ever had a moment from which you had a life two, so to speak? 	
FRANCESCA	I did have my moments. First of all I'd like to say listening to Gill and Toby it's incredible, and incredibly inspiring and the fact that they get that focus out of such an awful situation is, you know, I think it should be shared with all the young people of today who so often lack any perspective because our society likes to pump out the rubbish that happiness and confidence comes from what you look like, how much you weigh, what you own, and in fact your two stories have proved that's absolutely rubbish, it's about how you approach life and how you see yourself and what perspective you choose to have, and that choice is really all we have. I am a bornie but my defining moment was after a very few hard years at high school, I went to a teenage girls' school and when you put teenage girls together they do become bitches. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that word? 	
mat	Just checking on the BBC word list? 	
liz	It's okay. 	
mat	Yeah you're fine. 	
FRANCESCA	So they unfortunately had the effect of stripping away all my confidence and I very unwisely took onboard their views of me and I started to judge myself by their standards. And so when I was about 19 years old I had just left Grange Hill and Grange Hill had restored some of my confidence, but I still really wanted to be 'normal' whatever that was. My favourite definition of 'normal' by the way is a cycle on the washing machine. 	
liz	I like that. 	
FRANCESCA	But I remember meeting a guy in a pub when I was about 18 years old and I said to him, "I'm brain damaged" as you do and he said, "B what?" and I said, "I'm brain damaged" and he said, "No you're not that's just a label other human beings have made up to define you. You are perfectly you." And it sounds incredibly clichéd but in that moment he made me realise what Gill said that I had the choice and I was choosing to waste my life being negative. And from that moment I chose to be positive. I chose to accept myself and get on with living my life and take my head out of my arse. And also I fell in love with him of course. He broke my heart but he changed my life and I'm forever grateful for that shift of perspective. I think that's the biggest gift you can give anyone really. 	
liz	Gill, choice then?	
gill 	Choice is everything. And it's hard I think for me it's the challenges of the daily grind, if you like, so not every day I wake up and think [singing] "Ah it's wonderful to be alive" you know I feel like that probably 95% of the time and some days I just think it's not okay to not have legs and I miss things, because I'm getting to a stage six years on where I'm starting just to forget so it's oh what did it feel like walking along the side of the ocean? Hm I forget. 	
mat	Wow!	
gill	What did it feel like standing up having a shower? I forget. And because if I'm not in my legs I'm crawling on the ground. So I have these two completely different lives. And I live on my own and there's a lot of vulnerability, there's a lot that goes on. But I look at them as I've got to think of them as challenges and make choices all the time throughout the day of, okay be grumpy for about half an hour and then get over it and get on with it. 	
liz	And I like that it seems that it's all about perspective as well both the perspective of how you see things but also your perspective of whether you're up or you're down.	
gill	That's it. 	
liz	You're either crawling or you're on legs. 	
gill	When I'm down I'm really down. 	
mat	But it's easy to say be grumpy for half an hour then get over it. But some people find that very difficult. How did you manage to be able get to a place where you could decide to do that? 	
gill	I think I just keep reminding myself I was so close to not being here. I'm three minutes thirty seconds to not being here before they decided to call time of death. And I came back three minutes so I had thirty seconds to spare. So very similar company with Toby and I hold on to that. I hold on to that like all of these things that are gifts, it's yet another gift to say I was so close to not being here get over it, Gill, because I can't afford to waste twenty four hours feeling down with a packet of chocolates on the bed. I can't afford to do that, every day is too precious. 	
liz	Toby?	
toby	Gill and I are probably really fortunate because we had the mindset that, you know, we weren't going to let this defeat us and that we would continue and carry on. But I bet there are people out there who may be in similar situations where they are beaten by it. And the mind does a really funny thing because I do believe that even though when I was unconscious and deaf or don't know what was going on that subconsciously my mind must have been doing something saying, "Carry on, fight through this." 	
mat	And do you find you do motivational performance stuff and have you come into contact with people who have told you that they are unable to find a positive in the day and what is the point of going on? Have you ever come up against the proverbial brick wall in that way? 	
toby	Occasionally but I'm very... when I work with people I'm very selective about who I work with. So before I work with them we go through a kind of like an on-boarding process. 	
liz	Do you only work with the motivated ones already Toby, I'm just asking? 	
toby	No I mean I do... If somebody comes to me and they have the mind--... like you say, Mat, if they have the mindset that nothing's possible, that everything's doom and gloom then I'm going to have a real challenge on my hand working with them. So I like to see that somebody has some sort of spark of opportunity thinking in them and that they're kind of moving towards something. 	
liz	It sounds like you've always had that spark really. I mean I'm not being cruel here, Toby, but if you went for a work capability assessment they'd probably look at you and go, "Bless him" even in this day and age they'd probably go, "Bless him, you're signed off on benefits for life" yeah? 	
Toby	Yeah. 	
liz	But you were out there at 15 asking in your local bank was it... 	
toby	Yeah. 	
liz	... for a job. 	
toby	Yeah. At 15 I went into my local bank and then just asked them for a job. 	
liz	And did they give you one? 	
toby	They did actually. 	
mat	But apparently they didn't pay you. 	
toby	No they didn't pay me, no. 	
mat	So hold on that's what I call a work ethic mate. 	
toby	Yeah you could call it a work ethic. 	
liz	Why didn't they pay you I'm intrigued? 	
toby	Well it was one of those things that I was... when I was about 14/15 I really, really wanted to work. And I mean Mat says, you know, maybe it was just the work ethic in me. But at the same time I was also in receipt of benefits. And because the work was in holidays, it wasn't during school and college, so had I worked I would have lost the benefits and I needed the benefits to pay for the hostel that I was staying in. So it was a bit of a catch 22 that I couldn't afford to lose the benefits but then I wanted to work as well. So I just worked for free and they actually paid me in gift vouchers at the end of each stint of work that I did they just gave me an envelope of gift vouchers. 	
liz	Because this was a few years ago I'm guessing, like ten or so years ago, and yet still that difficulty of working and getting money can be difficult for disabled people. 	
mat	Yeah I was going to say that's a story I've heard many times. I mean I know several people who have found that situation difficult. 	
toby	Yeah I think it's definitely one of those awkward barriers. There seems to be a really muddly greyish area where if somebody really wants to get to work and yet they're kind of discouraged to go to get work. 	
mat	It's like either you're disabled or you can work. 	
toby	Yeah there doesn't seem to be like a happy medium to help bridge the gap. 	
liz	Gill, in terms of work for you, you gave up a career as a... what were you before the accident?	
gill	I used to work for a government quango in design. So we'd look at, strangely enough, part of what I was looking at at the time was the amputations that have been caused through two main areas in the general public of diabetes and smoking related illness and the cost implication to the NHS. So ironic it was that I ended up in an amputation ward spouting all these figures at people, at my fellow patients, and they're looking at me and going, "What?" "How do you know this?" 	
liz	How informed, how quickly.	
gill	Don't smoke, don't do it. Yeah. 	
liz	How could she know that? 	
gill	Exactly. 	
liz	She got the manual. 	
gill	But I think for me going back to work, for me, for myself it was important to complete something as though I was back. But there were a couple of areas as a freshly disabled person I was suddenly oh, I'm the token person in the wheelchair. Oh, suddenly there's the reason why we have a disabled loo. Oh, suddenly... and it was very obvious of how many sort of I guess abrasive moments there were throughout that journey of people just feeling like suddenly we've got to confront something that no-one had had to do before. And I was clearly coming back as a very different form than when I had left. 	
liz	You quite quickly moved on to another career which is what you're doing now. 	
gill	Absolutely. So stemming from the time in the carriage for me and definitely the whole idea of like with Toby of life and death it was an understanding that I needed to sign a new contract, and in that new contract was how do I use my life now? And how do I, you know, and to risk being filled with clichés but it is how do you make a significant difference with what you have - and that's what I've gone forth to do. That's very hard to earn a living in but satisfying as a soul definitely. 	
liz	So you're a peace campaigner now? 	
gill	Well I don't campaign, so I'd say I'm a peace builder or an advocate for people living in confidence, because I like to talk about confidence rather than peace. 	
mat	How exactly do you do that? 	
gill	I work with extremist groups. I travel to the Middle East, I travel to Australia and work in schools. I work in schools in the UK. And one specific project that was played, if you like, on my new form was I walked from Leeds to London. And that was a demonstration not to raise money but to say if I can do the most difficult thing for me, which took a month to walk, what I'm asking each community to do is come out and talk to each other. Because the moment you can start to break down preconceived ideas whether it be through religion, whether it be able/disabled whatever it is we'll look at each other and think oh I know what you're all about without ever having the opportunity to talk. So I look for building platforms and using my body in a way to build the platform. 	
liz	And this is through Mad for Peace is that right?	
gill	And this is through Mad for Peace. 	
liz	And do you find this kind of work profitable? 	
gill	No. 	
liz	I didn't know how to ask that question. 	
gill	If there's anyone listening that wants to write a big cheque please. No it's terrible, it's terrible but, as I said, I go to sleep very soundly at night thinking I'm doing what I feel, at the moment, is what my contract is telling me to do in my life number two. 	
liz	So that's something you're prepared to take on? 	
gill	Absolutely. 	
mat	Francesca, we've kind of moved into jobs as a subject and your showbiz famously is a job of up and down fortunes, how do you fare? 	
FRANCESCA	Well I must say that I've never had a real job in my life. 	
mat	Eh!	
liz	We didn't want to say that, Francesca, but I'm glad you have.. 	
FRANCESCA	I love that. 	
mat	'Never done a day's work in her life!'	
liz	Daily Mail and other assorted newspapers eh? 	
mat	'She admits that she's never worked.' 	
FRANCESCA	Well one of the ways I've been fortunate in my life is family and the values they brought me up with and they always said try and do something you love. So they encouraged me to pursue my dream which is talking rubbish. And I've been talking rubbish for nearly 13 years now. I love it it's the best job in the world. A few reasons; no early mornings, no boss, and I still can't believe that people, strangers, come in and pay to listen to what I have to say. That to me is an incredible privilege, one I don't take lightly, I actually view it as quite a serious thing and I really want to try and use that time as best as possible. So similar to Gill and Toby I'm very keen about passing on something valuable, maybe beyond the jokes, beyond laughter, something longer lasting which I can feel passionate about passing on. 
Of course when I started comedy I did it for free, I used to drive to Manchester for ten minutes and be really grateful to go up and pay £50 in petrol. I'm now at a point where I'm lucky enough to make a decent living. I'm lucky, for me, I'm too lazy to be materialistic so the priorities of my life are having enough money to live, eat a lot and the time to sleep. Sleep is one of my big passions. I'm currently researching if I can ever get paid for sleeping because I think I could earn a lot. No to me I really value time and if my time is my own I'm happy. So I'd much rather have less money, less material things and time to wake up and do what I want to do. To me that's like being a millionaire, so I'm very, very lucky and I wouldn't change what I do for the world. 	
liz	And as a stand-up comedian is it more important that you make an audience laugh or you inspire them? 	
FRANCESCA	Well I'm a big believer that if you call it comedy it has to be funny. And I think where the skill comes in is that making serious points and maybe philosophical points and political points while being funny. I'm not one of these people who think oh you can just say beautiful things. No if you're calling it comedy it's got to make people laugh. Saying that, I do other performances that aren't really called comedy and that's quite interesting because you're really freed up from the burden of having to be funny and I really enjoy those too. Because you can just speak from the heart without going, "Oh there hasn't been a gag for ten seconds." So it's been an interesting journey really trying to fit in what I feel is important to say, and there are loads of issues that are pressing into today's world and that really need airing and talking about, so I really want to use my tongue and say just to give that an airing while being funny. 	
liz	And if you were somebody called you inspirational, for example, would you take that as a compliment or an insult?	
FRANCESCA	Well I think I myself personally like to be inspired. It's a weird word inspired but I like to have my views challenged and I like to adopt new perspectives that make the world a more interesting and beautiful place. So if I can do that for anyone else I'm totally honoured and happy. And I think that's a very lovely thing to be able to give someone. But like Gill and Toby said about death, I think death should be motivating for everybody. I haven't had a near death experience, touch wood, but one day of course I will die and I always have it in my head, at the back of my head, I think one day I will not be here anymore and that does motivate me a lot.	
mat	Absolutely as it should all of us. But come on you're a stand-up comedian you must have had a near death experience at some point on stage. 	
FRANCESCA	It's weird I'm sure Mat and Liz you'd agree with us how people kind of say you're so brave it's so terrifying. But I actually think if you viewed comedy in the right way it's not. If we cock up people don't laugh, if a doctor cocks up someone dies. To me that is terrifying. So I don't think what we do is that terrifying. 	
liz	Toby, you say that a lot of people find themselves in a rut from your experience and get very stuck in their comfort zone. How do you get them out?	
toby	Yeah you know what the whole subject of comfort zones is really interesting because it seems to be like a default position for most human beings that operate within their comfort zone, there are some exceptions. But the interesting thing about comfort zone is the more that you push at the boundaries of that comfort zone it grows. So what becomes comfortable for you may look uncomfortable for other people if that kind of makes sense? So one thing I can do to help people get out of comfort zones is to really help them explore the boundaries and keep pushing at the boundaries. 	
mat	You know I can relate to that because a few years ago I was living in a life that had been stable and constant for so many years that it was utterly a comfort zone and I gave up everything I knew for everything I didn't know. The partnership I was in ceased to be, the house I lived in ceased to be, I moved to a different area, got a flat, my whole life changed and I have to say I personally feel I've grown exponentially since that and I couldn't agree more with what you're saying. 	
toby	And you know what the interesting thing is Mat it's because again it's a default setting almost that people just coast. I don't mean that in a negative way, but when you're faced with an event like something like Gill and I went through, or it could be redundancy, divorce anything like that those are the things that really push us outside our comfort zones. And that's what I think... I think we're all saying here that actually they're kind of blessings in a way and that, you know, helping us... force us out of our comfort zones is a good thing. 	
liz	There's a lot of government talk, a lot of change in terms of benefits and welfare reform at the moment, have they got it right, is it about kicking disabled people out of their comfort zone?	
mat	Are they just trying to help us motivate more? 	
liz	Francesca?	
FRANCESCA	I find it hard to swear, not to swear on this question.	
mat	But being a professional stand-up comedian, come on.	
FRANCESCA	I really think that is typical news speak. I read a document today, funnily enough, how the government was preparing to reassess everyone on DLA, an estimated two million people are going to lose that benefit.	
liz	And this is the disability living allowance. 	
FRANCESCA	Yes. And the words they use are, "We want to reassess people to make sure they're receiving their correct amount of benefit." And I just think that is typical. Once again disabled people are paying for the greed of the elite corporate lot at the top. I think it's absolutely disgusting. 	
mat	Gill?	
gill	Thanks Mat. I can only speak for myself but I know how uncomfortable my life is. So I don't feel that I need to be pushed into an even more uncomfortable position to have an awakening or to think gosh I think I might go and be a miner and do something completely different with my life. So I just think that's all I would like some perspective on perhaps when these things are being thought about as legislation or an investigation that already, as I said I can only speak for my life, my life has already got enough challenges other than worrying about how I'm going to pay the gas bill. 	
liz	So maybe it's about what kind of comfort zone we're in, Toby? 	
toby	I totally agree with Gill, it shouldn't be used. This whole discussion about comfort versus discomfort shouldn't be used as a strategy to get people to move, so yeah. 	
mat	I should just point out that we don't have a government spokesman here today to put their side. And if you want to comment in any way then please do email us or get in contact with us at some point at ouch@bbc.co.uk.	
liz	So it's a year where I guess benefit changes and work are things on our minds as disabled people but of course the big news 2012 it's the Paralympics. Are we excited, Gill? 	
gill	This is my chance to say what a rubbish Australian I am with all the connotations of sporting-ness from my countrymen I think I was officially asked to leave twenty years ago because I'm rubbish at sport, I don't drink beer, I don't tan, so I'm not really very good at the whole sports question. The only thing I would like to say is that when I was given my first set of feet they were called 'elite feet' and the strap line on the box rather amusingly said, 'Helping you reach your sports/life balance'. So whether that makes me officially sporty I don't know because I actually have sporting feet. 	
mat	Did it make you feel more sporty when you put them on?	
gill	Well I did, I made a little joke with the prosthetist I was running on the sport going, "How do you turn them off? How do you turn them off?" And they're looking a bit bemused and said, "Huh? There is no off switch." But Paralympics very exciting but I, for one, would love to see it amalgamated with the Olympics and not have two separate things. 	
mat	Do you mean to have Oscar Pistorius running against... 	
gill	Absolutely!	
mat	... somebody with traditional legs?	
gill	I would love that. 	
FRANCESCA	Yeah I agree with Gill yeah. I just want to say here that I'm the laziest person ever and the Paralympics makes me feel even lazier so I'm not a big fan but I really think integration is the way forward. 	
mat	Toby, I don't believe that you agree?	
toby	Actually it's quite an interesting... I've never really thought about it that way actually. I am looking forward to the Olympics later this year actually and I've got tickets to go and I'm quite pleased that I'm going to the Paralympics rather than the... I haven't got tickets for the Olympics. 	
mat	Why is that? 	
toby	I wasn't selected. 	
mat	Same old reason. 	
liz	So yet again it's about choice and how you view things perspective-wise?	
toby	Yeah. 	
liz	Ah I see. 	
FRANCESCA	And he's happy he wasn't selected.	
toby	I put a bid in for Olympic tickets and I didn't get any and then I put a bid in for Paralympic tickets and I got quite a few tickets so I'm going to see three sports and the closing ceremonies, so I'm really happy about that. 	
mat	Wow what does that say? 	
gill	Exactly.	
liz	Are they a good thing for London, are they a good thing for disabled people?	
toby	Yeah I'm really quite excited about Paralympics because I think if you strip away all the hype around the Olympics and you get right down to the actual Paralympics themselves, they're people, who like any Olympian, who really have worked hard at their sport to be at the top of their field, and I just think that that's amazing that they're at the top of their game and they're able to beat records, run fast, swim fast. 	
mat	Francesca you got your tickets?	
FRANCESCA	No. I agree with Toby it's great to see our Paralympians have that platform to compete, but I also think it hypercritical when our government is getting ready to really reduce equality of disabled people's lives in the UK, making them really seem a burden on the state. 	
mat	And Gill this whole thing about disabled people being a burden and useless do you think this is like unless they try for a gold medal... because I've heard it said from some disabled people that they don't like the Paralympics because it makes regular disabled people who have no desire to break a world record... 	
gill	Yes absolutely. 	
mat	... seem undervalued in some way.	
gill	Absolutely. Because I remember clearly all the sort of people in my life who are the able-bodied people immediately say, "What about that Oscar guy you could run that him" but I didn't want to run before and I don't want to run now, I'm very happy watching them. But I do feel a sense of pressure. However the positives are I look at my body in a very different way now compared to what I used to. So I use my body in a different way. I only think gosh I used to have a gym membership if only I'd gone. It was just something that sat in my wallet to look good and I really wish now I'd made use of that and was on the treadmill. So, you know, yeah I don't want to feel pressured into being sporty. 	
mat	What do you feel about that, Toby, that whole makes the rest of us look bad thing? 	
toby	I'm not sure that that's the case actually. 	
mat	Oh!	
toby	There are lots of, if you take just the regular Olympics, then there are lots of people out there who don't really aspire to being a great runner or a great swimmer anyway. So I personally look at the Paralympics and I don't really aspire to be a great... Well I don't know what I could do, to be honest, but I don't... 	
mat	How's your boccia? 	
toby	Yeah I don't really aspire to be a great Paralympic but I just enjoy the games and the atmosphere and everything that goes with it. 	
mat	I've actually been inspired today because I'm going through a bit of a I suppose a midlife crisis or whatever because I'm going to be 50 next year.	
liz	No not you?	
mat	Yes. 	
liz	With your rugged good looks. 	
mat	And the thing is I'm not... I'm just going to say it like I feel it, Gill, yes it must have been tremendously difficult what you went through physically and learning to live in your body number two and all that stuff, but what I actually find inspiring is the mental attitude that's coming from the three of you. Because it is, it's that deciding whether to do the positive thing and it's kind of irrespective of what body you've got or whether you've got a new body or an old body. What do you think Liz? 	
liz	Well no I just think it's really fascinating because everyone here just you know that mental attitude as you just said and do you think is it about being disabled or becoming disabled or those life changing moments, or is it just who we are and who we were and our parents and our...	
FRANCESCA	You know, bizarrely, the people I meet in life who are most myopic and insecure and negative are the people that have what society say you need, so they're very often very good looking, they're so-called able-bodied, talented, intelligent. So I do think having some kind of challenge in your life actually helps you see through all the false messages which can lead people to follow the wrong goals. So I think disability could actually help you just realise what's **** and what isn't. 	
mat	Wow!	
liz	Gill, what do you think?	
gill	I feel like the volume knob gets turned up. So we are who we are and things can happen and then the volume knob just gets turned up on that. So I just feel more... And it's actually quite lonely actually compared to all that's going on out there walking around thinking I'm not bothered by the things you're bothered about. And that's a very lonely space to occupy or you just look like you're off with the fairies. But yeah I do think it's the volume knob for me is definitely being turned up to eleven!	
liz	And the other advantage is of course your extra height? 	
gill	Yes I'm a lot taller than I used to be. 	
liz	How come? 	
gill	I kind of well I didn't really tell them how tall I was to begin with and then I sort of then begged and pleaded to be taller and now I have a height problem, and I'm admitting it now with all of you here, that every time I go and get new legs I go, "Just another inch, I can do it just a bit more, a bit more."	
liz	Give me another few inches. 	
gill	Exactly. 	
FRANCESCA	You're a height addict. 	
gill	I used to be about five foot and now I'm five seven. 	
liz	So, Toby, the year ahead you know here we are fresh new year what's your advice for people to motivate people, get them out of their rut this year, what should we do? 	
toby	You know the quickest and the easiest way to do it is to actually step back a bit and look at the things that aren't working for you in your life. And I don't mean this to be like a depressing or negative exercise, but quite often if you can just look back and see what's not working, what's making you uncomfortable or what are the pain points in your life, that can be usually enough to get you motivated. Because humans come in really - this is a very broad statement - but humans either come in like a 'move towards' or a 'move away from' mode. So if somebody's really uncomfortable say in their job they might say, "I'm really uncomfortable in my job I have to get out of here." Other people might think I really need a new job, I need a new job that gives me challenges etc, etc. So, first of all, work out what kind of person you are, do you tend to move away from things or do you tend to move towards and then make a list and then try and work out a strategy. 	
mat	Does anybody have anything to add? 	
gill	I would like to say how important it is to fall in love with yourself in the most positive way. And I'd like to spend a year perhaps revisiting that for me and just to have an unconditional love affair with me. And therefore that reinstates and it reinforces everything that Toby's just said as well because then you have to relook at your life and say, "I'm so in love with myself and I'm so in love with all my potential, what is it I can go off and do?" 	
FRANCESCA	Yeah I agree that self acceptance is really important. I had years of viewing my walk as I walk badly. And then I was like, "No this is the best I bloody can walk, this is the best" and it really changed the way I felt and I kind of felt proud of myself. And the way I did things and I went, "They're not bad they're the way I do it." 	
liz	And that's when you decided to reclaim the wobble? 	
FRANCESCA	I reclaimed the wobbly yeah, wobbly had the big effect because all my life I've hated saying I've got Cerebral Palsy, so I stopped and that's really great to define yourself how you want. And I also think perspective is so important because when I was really myopic and insecure I couldn't see anyone else's problems or issues. And I think when you look outside yourself and look at all the awful things that are going on in the world it's far easier to think actually I am so lucky, and we are so lucky, and hopefully begin to get yourself out of being so self focussed and in the place where you can actually try and make the world a better place for everyone. 	
toby	On top of what Francesca said it's being proven that one of the main things that can help improve your mental wellbeing is actually just appreciation. 	
gill	Yes. 	
toby	So it's a really simple exercise but just to keep an appreciation diary, write five things down every day that you appreciate in life and it lifts your spirits. 	
liz	And it's an excuse to buy new stationery... 	
gill	Yay! 	
liz	... which is always good. Thank you. On that note, Gill, thank you so much for joining us...	
gill	Thank you. 	
liz	... Francesca, Toby you've been brilliant. 	
mat	Yeah you've been fantastic. And listeners I hope that's perked you up to have a jolly good and inspiring 2012. And that is it for our New Year's Special. I'd like to thank the team, Dan Slipper, Emma Tracey and the studio manager Gill Drabble, and the producer was Damon Rose.	
liz	We're back next month with a regular talk show. So come looking for us in early February. You can email us in the meantime ouch@bbc.co.uk, you can follow us on Twitter at bbcouch, or go to Facebook.com/ouchbbc - our name is the other way around there for some reason, don't know why. Anyway goodbye now and we hope you have a positive New Year.